The Others, do they even stand a chance?

[Yog-Sothoth]

I know its still unclear what forces or powers will be deployed against them, but the 'Others are such a fascinating mystery/enigma that it's difficult to make a military/political comparison that would enable a person to speculate about their chances of success.

On the one hand you have the Wall and the Night's Watch armed with dragon-glass, you have multiple battle-hardened Lannister, Stark, Stannis, Vale, and Highgarden armies in Westeros with their subordinate houses and armies that would immediately unite once the Others' launch their invasion, and add to that the Golden Company, and the brotherhoods.

You also have Dany and the three dragons. You have Melissandre, Jon and most likely the legendary flaming sword. You have Bran becoming an uber-warg. You have the various maesters at Old Town. You have the followers of Rlholrlala(sp?), (the fire people), etc.

Against what?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Against Death?

This is certainly a compelling thread, because we don't even know how, or if, the Others are organized. most of the time the Others manifest as Wights, which are basically like zombies except only fire kills them. and if we learned anything from Red Dead Redemption, undead nightmare, its that Zombie Bears are effing terrifying!

we also don't know just how many White Walkers there are, but we do know that, in a fight, as your numbers drop, their numbers grow. we also know that their swords can cut right through regular steel, and there isn't much valyrian steel out there.

the night's watch need some Wild Fire!

 

[Eulalia]

OMG, Wildfire flung from the wall (but not too close), or dropped from dragons?

The Dothraki would be a large force, too, if they were disciplened enough!

Maybe the Others should agree to a Partition!

 

[Pilpel]

I know its still unclear what forces or powers will be deployed against them, but the 'Others are such a fascinating mystery/enigma that it's difficult to make a military/political comparison that would enable a person to speculate about their chances of success.

On the one hand you have the Wall and the Night's Watch armed with dragon-glass, you have multiple battle-hardened Lannister, Stark, Stannis, Vale, and Highgarden armies in Westeros with their subordinate houses and armies that would immediately unite once the Others' launch their invasion, and add to that the Golden Company, and the brotherhoods.

You also have Dany and the three dragons. You have Melissandre, Jon and most likely the legendary flaming sword. You have Bran becoming an uber-warg. You have the various maesters at Old Town. You have the followers of Rlholrlala(sp?), (the fire people), etc.

Against what?

If only it were that simple... If the others attacked the kingdoms all out, in such a way that would pose a threat to the entire realm, the first reaction might be unity. But wait a few days and you'll get Cersei backstabbing everyone else in this new anti-Others alliance.

On a different note, I was under the impression that so long as the Wall stands, the Others can't march south. Isn't that written somewhere? I could be wrong, been a while since I read the books and frankly it's all getting mixed up in my head with the series.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I think you are right Pilpel.

Many people believe that the wall is about to come down, because the NW didn't "stay true" when they attacked Jon. I don't believe this is the case because there are still NW men loyal to the wall.

A more realistic interpretation (IMO) is that the wall will fall because the Leader of the NW didn't stay true to his oath, being that Jon just said he is about to go interfere in matters of the Realm. while this seems more likely, I doubt it is the case. I really hope Jons biggest contribution to the story is NOT that he will singlehandedly be responsible for the destruction of the wall. I really really hope this isn't GRRM's plan for him.

In the long run though, i do think the wall is going to come down at one point or another. the result of which will be the great climax of the story and resulting battle against the Others.

we shall see.

 

[Stribog]

The Wall, beside being dam against The Others, is also sort of treasury of ancient secrets and probably artifact or two. So my vote is for tearing the damn thing down, and let us see what is there to dig from the ruins, and how would our heroes fare in all out battle against Great Other and his people.

 

[Tywin]

It just occurred to me that since the wall is constructed of ice, that best and most effective way to destroy it would be with fire and/or heat. I would imagine there are quite a few ways that The Red God or dragons could be involved.

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

What about that magical horn of Jumanji or something like that, the Horn of Winter --> Winds of Winter, a connection? It had the power to bring down the wall. The one the K.B.W had - which was burned by Melissandre - was a fake according to Tor.

If the Others have it, then.........

 

[Mesanna]

There's some speculation that the horn Sam found might be the one. I've no idea whether he took it to Oldtown with him or if it's still kicking around at the Wall somewhere.

 

[FaitLoupe]

If only it were that simple...

On a different note, I was under the impression that so long as the Wall stands, the Others can't march south. Isn't that written somewhere? I could be wrong, been a while since I read the books and frankly it's all getting mixed up in my head with the series.

At the end of aDwD in Cotter Pyke's letter to Jon Snow from Hardhome it says "...dead things in the water.."

It's clear that The Others (wights etc) are undead through and through. They don't eat, sleep breath etc. So, just gonna throw this out there.. why couldn't they go around the Wall? It's not like it crosses the Narrow Sea or anything. (read: where the wall ends, the wards end).

Yes there are numerous magical wards present in the Wall that keep the Others at bay/from breaching the Wall, but they followed Mother Mole & her wildlings to Hardhome (I doubt the Wights would have any reason to traipse to the sea shore if it weren't for the life force of wildlings being present; it's not like they were keen on vacation!) and from there out into the bay likely due to the presence of Cotter Pyke's ships.

Even if it were just a few undead walruses or something, what's to stop them from swimming down to Eastwatch and spreading their taint that way?

 

[Needle]

Much as I hate to admit it, it seems The Others must get past the Wall. How? Don't know. I have to hope they come around, not bring it down. But if they remain in the far north simply because of Wall, where is the story going? Nowhere really.

As for a chance, absolutely!! Imagine it: They come. at night, upon a village. No soldiers or swords here. Everybody dies and gets back up to join them. On to the next and the next. When they come upon fighters, not much different. Be they Knights, NW, or ordinary soldiers, all have been taught to kill their enemy. How do you kill what is already dead? With Valyrian steel or Dragonglass of course. How many of them have these things? Precious few. When you fight them with normal weapons what happens? You chop them to pieces, and the pieces come after you!

Add to this the fact that Winter is Here! Food is short and getting shorter. Hunting or gathering what remains becomes dang near impossible. You dare not go any further from home than you can return before nightfall, and winter days are very short.

The final piece is the Cerseis' of the world. Men will still be fighting each other to protect their own.

So yes, they have a very real chance.

 

[Keebs411]

I would say if they went around and could move thru or by water the others could adopts the ironborns droqned god sligan of whats dead may never die

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

There's some speculation that the horn Sam found might be the one. I've no idea whether he took it to Oldtown with him or if it's still kicking around at the Wall somewhere.

Giantsbane is probably drinking out of it.

 

[All Men Must Die]

My question is where did the Others/White Walkers come from? What woke them up? Do they have an original White Walker, that is smart? Someone like they three eye crow, that is just as old?

If the other are just some mindless zombie that just attacks humans. I don't see them putting up a fight that threatens the whole realm. I know it will be a scary sight if you see thousands of other coming straight at you. Regular means of killing is out the window, such as arrows and swords.

Now if the Others have some type of smart leadership and they find the horn to bring the wall down. That will be real scary and something good to read.

 

[Ursa major]

As I've posted elsewhere, we readers have very little information about the Others, because:

• we've had no PoVs who've lived/are living with them;
• the general population of Westeros (north and south of the Wall) is almost completely ignorant about them.

We don't even know for sure whether the Others are the bad guys, only that some** non-Others believe that they are. They may have risen up to stop the evil of Rh'llor taking over the world.


** - Most haven't even heard of the Others.

 

[Utlendr]

I think the Horn of Joramund (sp) is still out there in the Frostfangs somewhere.

As for the White Walkers.. I think there is an organization to them and they are not just mindless monsters who raise the dead. They are just another race of sentient beings of Westeros... just like man, the Children of the Forest, the Giants, etc. Only difference is they are servants to an evil that we have yet to see in the series.

Just as the Red Priests can re-animate the dead - so can the White Walkers (obviously). Remember that there are two dieties according to the Red Priests, the lord of light and the dark other. I believe the dark other is the true antagonist of the entire series and we might be seeing more of him/it in the next two books.

Does the realm stand a chance? Maybe - the Others were beaten back before. They can be beaten back again. I think in the next two books the horn will be found by the Others and the wall will come down. The kingdoms should unite against them for the most part, but I don't for a second think that anybody from Essos will play a part as they will look at this as a "Westerosi conflict". I doubt the Others can make their way East.. or South for that matter. The Others thrive in the cold.. and yes Winter is coming.. but I doubt even places in Westeros (such as Dorne) will ever be cold enough to worry about a White Walker threat.

 

[A-roc]

There's some speculation that the horn Sam found might be the one. I've no idea whether he took it to Oldtown with him or if it's still kicking around at the Wall somewhere.

SPOILERS: I believe Sam still has the horn with him in Oldtowne. Maybe on the boat with the Summer Islanders he takes inventory of what little possessions he still has if I recall correctly.

The beginning of AFFC is speculated to be a faceless man taking over Pate for a key to the school. The running theory is that Jaqen haqar disguised as a novice is trying to steal a valuable book in the college that describes how to kill dragons, because the many faced god started as a rebellion against the old Valryian who enslaved people with the help of dragons.

I haven't seen this posted anywhere but Pate bites his gold dragon, so I guess whoever the faceless man is killed Pate the same way Arya poisoned the crooked insurance Bravosi. Jaquan is a mentor of sorts for Arya after all...

Sam notices something is off with the fake Pate at the end of AFFC. If Sam's horn is the horn of Jumanji , it's quite a ways away from the Wall.

Lastly, someone asked where the others came from. At some point maybe it was Ygritte telling Jon that Mance cracked open a bunch of crypts looking for the horn and the Others emerged.

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

'The Others' is an amazing concept though, more disturbing than any other supposed 'evil' force I have encountered in fantasy literature. Their enigma status in the epic series fires up the imagination, there is something about the cold that gives me the chills!

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Lastly, someone asked where the others came from. At some point maybe it was Ygritte telling Jon that Mance cracked open a bunch of crypts looking for the horn and the Others emerged.

I could be wrong, but I don't think this is the case. Wasn't Mance looking for the horn and gathering all the wildlings because the Others were back? They needed the hord to get passed the wall to flee the Others.

as for the Others being mindless monsters, there is evidence that suggests otherwise. Even the wights that come back retain some tainted inteligence and memories. The first Weight Jon kills was a Turned Crow, who was trying to kill the LC. That means the Wight made his way from the crypts up to the LC's chambers. The other wight was probably off on some other mission, maybe to open the gates or something.

Speaking of which, does anybody remember how many people the other wight killed and where, when and how they finally took it down?

 

[JoanDrake]

At the end of aDwD in Cotter Pyke's letter to Jon Snow from Hardhome it says "...dead things in the water.."

It's clear that The Others (wights etc) are undead through and through. They don't eat, sleep breath etc. So, just gonna throw this out there.. why couldn't they go around the Wall? It's not like it crosses the Narrow Sea or anything. (read: where the wall ends, the wards end).

Yes there are numerous magical wards present in the Wall that keep the Others at bay/from breaching the Wall, but they followed Mother Mole & her wildlings to Hardhome (I doubt the Wights would have any reason to traipse to the sea shore if it weren't for the life force of wildlings being present; it's not like they were keen on vacation!) and from there out into the bay likely due to the presence of Cotter Pyke's ships.

Even if it were just a few undead walruses or something, what's to stop them from swimming down to Eastwatch and spreading their taint that way?

I've read an interview with Martin where he says that the Dragons are his alternate world's equivalent of nuclear weapons and a major characteristic of Dragons is they can fly. If the Others are able to get Dragons (and since nobody knows anything about them they could have a whole breeding farm up there, couldn't they?) then they'll be able to get over the wall fairly easily.