Prometheus (2012) discussion - *SPOILERS!*

Oh, not to mention Vickers running AWAY from a rotating wheel, rather than off to the side - and she'd seemed so smart and in control and willing to do whatever it takes to survive!

And the throw-away connection of her being Weyland's daughter, which again added nothing. Surely she'd be a mite more peeved at her dad for choosing an android over her.

And the captain, in the end out for what is best for humanity - yet he sees two of his crew uncover a mass of dead engineer bodies and is completely unconcerned for what this might signify and never mentions this to anyone else, nor seems overly concerned about the lifeform detected by the probe. In fact he even seems to lie about seeing the pile of bodies, saying that the static is cutting out the feed for a lot of the time, as if he has some ulterior motive. So he goes from being blithely unconcerned, to willing to sacrifice himself later?

Why wouldn't Weyland send David in to talk to the engineer and only be woken up afterward? After all he only has limited time to live, and the engineer may take hours or days of conversation to go over the possibilities of immortality. Maybe he'd need weeks or months to prepare whatever was needed to make him immortal. Why not stay safely asleep until all that was uncovered?

The more I think about it, the more flawed it gets :)
 
What a waste having Chalize in this film. What was the point, they already had a captain. I like her, and I don't think she did a bad job in this film, but besides the predictable relationship she had with Guy Pearce, I just don't for the life of me understand her role on that ship. Guy Pearce, they really should have had that speech he made on that video while he was young in the film. It would have helped the audience who does not watch things like that relate to him more. The xenomorph at the end was kind of laughable, too. Other than that, it was enjoyable to watch, plotholes not withstanding.
Oh yeah, why was that one surviving engineer still alive? I mean, why didn't he wake up earlier?
 
Overall, I enjoyed Prometheus, especially from a design perspective. I found there to be too many paper-thin characters and the script weak, especially in the final act, with perhaps too much left unresolved. I think it will reward multiple viewings though, and I was particularly taken by the mysterious opening to the film, and left wondering if this was a reference to the common creation myth of the 'dismembered God', with life on Earth formed from the body parts of a deity (or 'Engineer' in this case!). I'm possibly way off beam with that idea, but for all its flaws, it's always welcome to have a film that stimulates further discussion.
 
Prometheus is to Alien what The Phantom Menace was to Star Wars.
 
I was getting ready to post a long rant about my disappointment (both at myself for believing the hype, and the shoddy film, itself) but then I read James' post which says exactly how I feel about this film, so I hope he doesn't mind if I carve and add to what he has said.

The characters should have been halved in number. In stories, empathy with the characters is ultimate importance. They did not allow us time to develop any sense of care or intuition for the character. By intuition I mean this: You would know what Ripley or Burke would have done in similar situations early on in the movie Alien or Aliens because those characters are drawn so well, so early that you know one is a pragmatic kick ass and the other is a cowardly manipulator. Therefore, you can intuit what their actions would be in any given situation.

Re:Characters
The Engineers: I exist, therefore I'm a villain.
The Converted Geologist: I've been infected, therefore I'm a villain.
David: I'm an Android, therefore I'm a villain (regardless of how sketchy his motives or character was).
Charlize: Point of her? Just to add some link to Weyland from the franchise canon?

Why do we keep seeing these boring hackneyed sci-fi tropes? (Not to mention TheTomG's comment above about Vickers running away instead of to the side of the rolling ship. When Jar Jar runs down the hill at the Battle of Naboo to escape the rolling boomers we're like; 'Of course, it's cool, cos Jar Jar is a twit!'. But when the two most intelligent females in Prometheus do the same thing there is cause for concern.)

Anyway, back to my best bits from James' post (my edits);

The problem with the film was that it tried to shoehorn about half a dozen different themes into one film and does none of them justice. Same with the characters. There are just too many, so none get the screen time to make them really deep and allow me to connect with them...Quite frankly there were too many of them put in front of you to give any time to develop fully...[I would recommend anyone who is not a visitor to the Aspiring Writers forum here to get thee hence and see how important this comment is]

...why did they decide to hole up in the room with the head and jars? Did they not think that hanging around in a previously sealed room with a bunch of vases that have black goo oozing out of them, that weren't oozing before (as was even pointed out by one of the characters at one point iirc) wasn't the greatest idea...

Then there's David...they never even question what he's doing, like why did he touch that alien machine when he can't possibly know what it'll do... What is his ultimate motivation anyway? Trying to justify himself as worthy of his creator? Or trying to find the true meaning of the human soul he apparently lacks? [And are we to believe he pilots the craft out of altruistic needs or to follow his initial directive - there is no evidence for a definitive answer in the movie]

Elisabeth is another confused character. The whole can't have kids thread is chucked in half baked [exactly!] Her cross and religious beliefs feel like they've been dropped in to somehow add a theological element to the story that really shouldn't be there...[we're bluetoothing now, James!]

And her husband/boyfriend. They are built up to be the core relationship around which the story revolves. Then half way through he is just randomly flamethrowered to death. Why is he drinking so heavily? He shows no sign of it before the ship sets off, then soon as they find the engineers he goes all out of character, slouching around with a bottle in his hand. [Exactly!].


The captain was reasonable, though quite why he was so happy to suicide kamakazi himself at the end was a bit out of character (same with the two pilots. [Why? Well because he is black and we all know black folk are happy-go-lucky singalong comedians who always get killed before the end of the movie? Notwithstanding the fact that Idris Elba was born down the road from me and has an English accent. It's just another example of racism in Hollywood.]

Engineers
[now for my biggest moan]
The engineers are a total cop-out. The original alien film had the pilot, who was never explained or really covered in any of the subsequent films. All we know is he's bizarre looking alien and fossilized and a victim of the (main) aliens. Part of the appeal is having some things that are never explained. So going back and saying 'oh he was just an advanced human in a suit' is quite frankly insulting.
[You've hit on the most iconic moment in Alien for me; when the away team in Alien find the Space Jockey I was intrigued and obsessed to a small degree of how/what/why it got there. Most clear in my childhood mind (I'm 40 now) were two things; 1, the fossilisation; 2, the hole in his chest. So where is this Space Jockey?]


Black Goo
[the only thing I have to say about this is that it was another concept introduced to muddy already conceptually over-populated and muddy waters]

The black goo stuff is another part of the alien lifecycle that wasn't in any of the previous films...

...Then again, for my favourite geologist, it just zombifies him, causing him to rage beat up a bunch of throwaway characters, whilst for the engineers, it causes their heads to explode. Inconsistent...

Deeper Meanings

The film starts off 'oh look, here are these aliens who were on ancient Earth.' Well that's gonna be a fairly fundamental turning point in human history and could probably take up a whole film in its own right.

...The archaeologists then make the unqualified assumption that these aliens created us somehow (as one character points out, throwing out centuries of established Darwinism). Again a whole film's worth of stuff at least right there...

[I love the idea of panspermia but it has to be consistent with our existing knowledge of the Theory of Evolution. To my knowledge it is accepted that what is now Eastern Africa - Tanzania etc was the crucible of humankind. I'm betting they did not look like huge white giants...or maybe the DNA exact match scene has me confused.]


Other Inconsistencies

The alien cut out of Elisabeth somehow grows enormous despite being locked in a room with nothing to eat. [I'm glad someone else was bothered by this.]

...The eponymous ship is nice and shiny, a (no doubt expensive) research vessel, yet the crew look like they were just picked randomly from a bunch of dock workers looking for casual employment. [And I also thought it anachronistic in terms of technology. it seemed way advanced to the stuff we see in the following movies. I'm not talking about the Nostromo hauler or the prison planet; I'm talking about the military tech in Aliens which (as we know from our own Military-Industrial Complex) should be far more advanced.]

Then at the end, flying off to ask the engineers some more questions? It may be a nice setup for a sequel, but after the response the engineer in stasis gave when woken up and queried, I wouldn't hold out much hope that any other engineers are going to give a more polite answer. In fact they might just blast Elisabeth's ship out of the sky... [And I hope they do, and that we don't need to suffer an extension of this rotting franchise. Alien died after Alien3 for me (possibly after Aliens), to use this morass of concepts and bad screenplay to groom us for future instalments is petrifying.]

...If it was a human beacon then the crew of the Nostromo would have immediately recognised it as such, not mistaken it for a distress beacon...[Indeed.]

Before I go I want someone to explain two things to me. I'm sure there is a reason for this which I missed as it is far too big an error to have made accidentally; In Aliens we are told that the moon is LV426 yet in Prometheus we were shown LV223. What happened/will happen?

Where is the fossilised Space Jockey with chest burster hole?

And finally, I know that this post may make me come across as a hater: I am not. I am not a fan of Aliens in the way that I am of, say BSG or Star Wars (and yes, I love the prequels :eek:), but I just feel so let down by a movie I was looking forward to seeing.

pH
 
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The alien cut out of Elisabeth somehow grows enormous despite being locked in a room with nothing to eat. [I'm glad someone else was bothered by this.]


Doesn't the same apply to the original Alien? What did that grow so large on? (Been a long time since I saw the film, so apologies of it was explained.)
 
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Doesn't the same apply to the original Alien? What did that grow so large on? (Been a long time since I saw the film, so apologies of it was explained.)


Ah the explanation I've read says ' Although such a rate of growth is quite unheard of in Earth's fauna, we should bear in mind that this particular life-form is extra-terrestrial, and therefore not necessarily subject to conventional wisdom about growth and development. Perhaps the Alien is a physiologically simple creature with all body structures present when it bursts out of its host, and all that is needed is that its cells quickly replicate and grow in size...blah blah blah ete etc '

Sounds like a get out of jail card when creating fantastical things
 
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The original Alien grows incrementally, although you're right in that this is not explained in the film other than the finding of shed skin, and implied.

Personally, I think this is because it has had a nice old chow down on some of the crewmates and because Kane had been eating Wheyland protein :D <groaaan>

I think the fact that the one in the Prometheus film was trapped in a med bay makes it harder to believe its size, but I think you're right that, essentially, there is no empirical proof of it eating in Alien, either. It just bothered me.

pH
 
While a similar problem exists in Alien with the unexplained growth (even cell replication needs raw material to draw from, alien or not - you can't spontaneously create matter), at least that Alien had a whole ship to run around, and who knows what food it might find? Being trapped in a med bay kind of removes that feel of "Oh it probably found something to chow down on."

Yeah the name of the moon is different, because it's a different moon. Which is why no fossilised space jockey - not the same place at all. This relieves them of the need to explain why the Nostromo didn't detect all the wreckage from the Prometheus and the escape pods and the survival capsule. Basically it frees them from having to dovetail too precisely into the Alien saga (or just yet anyway, as I hear there may be other movies in the making so we may end up precisely with the scene before Alien yet)
 
Before I go I want someone to explain two things to me. I'm sure there is a reason for this which I missed as it is far too big an error to have made accidentally; In Aliens we are told that the moon is LV426 yet in Prometheus we were shown LV223. What happened/will happen?

Where is the fossilised Space Jockey with chest burster hole?

First post on the forum :)
I have to agree with folk that Prometheus was a turkey. A very pretty and stylish turkey but a turkey all the same.

With regards the quoted wee bit up yonder ^^ the movie took place on a different moon/planet then the previous films. The ship in Alien/s is a different ship and the Space Jockey is a different Space Jockey. I assume that the Space Jockey found in the first film will make an appearance in any sequel that is to appear.
I do kinda hope they make a sequel but I hope it begins with Bobby Ewing in the shower and Pam realising it was all just a dream...

oops didn't spot TheTomG's post... :/
 
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Human evolution, Hmm. Even Louis Leakey referred to it as the "theory" of evolution.

The first engineer shown in the film: When was that? Before there was life on Earth? Can't tell. So the DNA strands he sloughs off may be sui generis or something that bonded to other existing life. I certainly wouldn't worry over quanititative things. After all, humans and chimpanzees are almost identical in their DNA.

The cave paintings/Egyptian glyphs, etc.: Calling cards? Seems likely, but why an invitation to a military installation? And why wait so long for the RSVP?

What went wrong at the installation? Seems obvious. Humankind is often (rightly) criticized for hubris, so why not aliens too. But it seems the last surviving engineer in the scene didn't get the memo that the others who were seen fleeing in the holo show got. Why else was he so single minded about launching the ship toward Earth? I actually have a speculated answer for that: In the early days of the filming of Scott's first Alien, the images of H.R. Giger were used not only to create the seminal creature, but also to detail some of the relationship with the "space jockeys". If you look at his images carefully, you can easily see a quasi-religious symbiotic/parasitic relationship. A cult, if you will, which motivated the jockey/engineers to sacrifice themselves irrespective of any secular logic. The statuary and bas-relief (Giger again, it would seem) in Prometheus could easily (rather strongly) hint at that. And Dr. Shaw's cross could well be the counterpoint to that.

Characters and story: Although she did a creditable job overall, Noomi Rapace seemed sappily optimistic before finally confronting reality. The rest of the scientific crew seemed too stupid to live. But that seems to have fulfilled itself. Charlize Theron's character seemed to be the only one who had her head screwed on straight. But she was the embodiment of the intrinsically evil company, so had to get squished by the space ship. Why was Guy Pearce's character so obsessed with the quest? Just go back to look at any number of old SF movies to see similar characters, e.g., John Hoyt's millionaire in 1951's When Worlds Collide.

I forgot to mention that I actually enjoyed the film. I forgive Ridley Scott all his trespasses.:D
 
The more I think about it the more sad it makes me. Could have been a masterpiece but bad plot again and also kind of anti-science. Whenever I hear someone refer to evolution as "Darwinism" I'm on guard that I'm talking to a creationist that has no understanding of the subject. Suggesting the space jokey genome somehow matches humans is just plain ridiculous and contradicts the opening scene. Sigh. I've decided I will try my best to forget the plot and buy it when it comes out on disk and watch it with the sound off while listening to Peter Gabriel.
 
Also I had no problem with the film not being enough like Alien, in fact it seemed it was under pressure to be more like it than it needed to be with the self c-section trying to outdo the famous chest bursting scene.
 
It's my opinion that with all the bad press prequels get, they were trying to make it just different enough not to directly associate this with the alien franchise, with the proverbial link at the end of a drawn out trilogy of plotholes to avoid connection of said franchise until the revealing moment when the average movie goer will say; "Ah-Ha! They are related!"
 
After a little digging around, I found a Giger image that was being discussed as possible for inclusion in the first Alien film. You can see the ritualistic flavor. Ultimately, Scott and the film producers excluded it. At least that's what I remember hearing in 1979.

Perhaps the engineers didn't dislike humans, but just wanted to be able to include them in their cultish behavior. And perhaps that's why David's head got twisted off: He wasn't human.

clovis-man-albums-sf-covers-picture1331-hr-giger-alienhieroglyphicsa.jpg
 
Perhaps the engineers didn't dislike humans, but just wanted to be able to include them in their cultish behavior. And perhaps that's why David's head got twisted off: He wasn't human.
[/IMG]

The 'Engineer' seemed pretty happy to kill everyone he saw. Here is my take on it:

The very beginning of the movie, where we see an Engineer watching the ship leave I believe was on Earth, and was facing some sort of punishment.
Taking the drink was some form of suicide, I think, but when he fell into the water, there was an adverse reaction. He broke down into molecules, which we saw floating in the water. Through evolution, those molecules eventually formed the human race. Hence, the 'we were created by the Engineers' theory.

The Engineers clearly came back and discovered the human race developing on Earth and figured out what happened. They decided to create a bioweapon of mass-destruction to destroy the human race.


What doesn't make sense to me is that the Engineers don't appear to know the location on Earth until David plucks it out of the map, essentially telling the Engineers where to find the human race. If they had already been to Earth several times, then why did they need David to show them? And why leave it until now?

Clearly their bio-research project got out of control and turned on the Engineers, killing them all on the planet, before they could escape. Otherwise they'd already be on their way to Earth.




There is a possibility that the Space Jockey in Alien isn't actually an Engineer at all. They drew a lot of attention to the periodical cramping spasms Elizabeth got. The pain came and went, not consistent with the constant pain she would have every time she moved from the c-section. It is possible that she, through the pregnancy, became infected and had an alien growing in her. Being female, that alien would likely be a queen. What if it was Elizabeth controlling the ship, the alien burst out of her, and she crashed on the planet from the first movie? She would look like a Space Jockey because you have to wear the armour to control the ship. Any message she left, using the technology of the alien ship, could possibly be garbled, or come out in the Engineer's language, or deteriorate with time, or is altered from wearing the suit.

It's just a theory, but makes sense to me.


Overall I have to say, the movie was terrible... So far only Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 have been any good, imo. Alien 4, AVP, Prometheus... all rubbish. I wanted to like Prometheus, really did, but sorely disappointed.
 
I got to see this the other week. I enjoyed it better than I expected, but it didnt tell us many new things. We already had an idea what happened prior from the first Alien movie. This one felt like a step towards more movies. Visually I thought it looked great
 
I watched it last night and, overall, I have to say I enjoyed it and am glad I went. However, some of the plot points were so glaring that by the time I woke up this morning they were really annoying me.
James and others have already listed them in detail, but the one thing that rankled the most were the cliched, stupid decisions the characters made; such as walking straight into the pyramid, removing helmets where there is a potential biohazard, and the "biologist" who pokes the alien snake creature. Isn't there a quality control mechanism somewhere in the writing process? Or do they think the cinema-going public are too stupid to notice or care?

I would like to think that the writers have answers to the questions posed here, however bizarre they may be (e.g. Q: why give directions to their military research planet rather than a homeworld? A: this was an "expiry date" for humanity. When you're advanced enough to develop spaceflight, you'll find the aliens and ensure your own destruction, hence preventing your destroying the galaxy with your warmongering ways), but I'm 99% certain they just haven't got a clue. The fact that Damon Lindelof was involved in Lost is telling; a series that disappeared up its own fundament.

The other thing that narks me is Guy Pearce's involvement. As Moonbat says, why have him playing an unconvincin-looking old guy, when there are a host of elderly actors who could have done it. I was expecting the younger Guy to show up, explaining all, but no.

I would still recommend it -- the visuals were stunning and it was reasonably exciting -- but it's very flawed, in much the same way as the Star Trek reboot was.
 

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