Who is Septa Lemore? (Spoilers)

[Heartsbane]

I was talking to my brother-in-law the other day about the series and he mentioned to me that he thinks Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne. So I started doing some rereading and poking around some other forums and found quite a lot of circumstantial evidence. I looked around and could not find a thread on this so I thought I would see what are the opinions.

Here is the list of evidence?
1. Hair color...originally thought to be blond but BFS confirms it was brown
2. Age. She is around 40 which would put her in the right age bracket
3. Attractiveness/looks. Ashara is said to be fair by most. BFS calls her a beauty but remember he is smitten with her so sees her with rose colored glasses. Septa Lemore is said to be a "handsome woman". Remember 20 years has past.
4. Septa Lemore has stretch marks as noted by Tyrion while she bathes nude in the river. This would work if we believe Lady Ashara gave birth to a baby/stillborn.
5. She is formerly a Lady and goes by Lady Lemore when she is in Westeros.
6. She also needs a hidden identity. We learn this when she tells Griff he is not the only one who needs to keep his true identity hidden.

Now the big stumbling block to this is the EYES. Lady Ashara has/had "haunting violet eyes" or "laughing violet eyes" depending on who is believed. However there is no mention of Septa Lemore's eye color at all. Which can be seen in two ways I think.
1. They are not violet so therefore not Lady Ashara
2. For George to say they are violet is too big a give away as to who it is so he has Tyrion overlook it. This is a big leap in my opinion especially since he was so quick to pick on Aegons/Young Grifs purple eyes.

Anyway I am curious as what everyone here thinks

 

[Boaz]

Earlier this year, someone posted, in the trivia thread, that Lemore is actually the mother of one of the Sand Snakes. I'm not sold on that at all.

One other reason for Lemore to be Ashara is her interest in helping Aegon and Connington. Ashara, like Connington, was an intimate of Rhaegar and Elia. Connington's death was faked so he could find and raise Rhaegar's son. Why couldn't Ashara's death be faked so she can tutor Elia's son?

Ultimately, how many faked deaths can GRRM plausibly get away with? Connington, Aegon, Ashara, Theon, Bran, Rickon, Davos, Arya, Ramsay... are there more? How many resurrections/wargings can he get away with? Beric, Catelyn, Orell, Varamyr, Jon, Gregor... What about Dany's immolation? Victarion and Connington both have dire injuries that may give them an unholy second life. Those are not all faked deaths, but keeping the living from the dead and the undead from the living takes some doing in ASOIAF.

Anyway, Lemore is an educated Westerosi woman, i.e. of noble blood. She could be anyone... someone we've never heard of...

If Ashara is alive and she's not Lemore.... who is she?

 

[Koopa]

I think i said something similar in the thread Jon Snow is a *******.
I'm not sure what the reply from the others where, though one offered a good rebuttal and other possible candidate.

Found it, I was crackpotting that Lemore was indeed Ashara.
Needle offered up the mother of the sandsnake. Since one of the sandsnakes mentioned that her mother was a septa.

 

[Boaz]

Might she just happen to be a septa that Rhaegar and Elia chose to spirit Aegon to safety?

 

[Ursa major]

I hope this isn't foreshadowing someone who perishes from Septa-seem-ia**....









** - To become, inevitably, Septa Seamier in the TV show....

 

[Tywin]

Do we know where Septa Lemore is/is heading by the end of ADWD? I don't remember if she crossed over with Conington and young Grif.

Just wondering if there is any chance of her running into Selmy.

 

[Heartsbane]

She has already crossed the sea to Westeros with Aegon(?) and Jon Connington.

 

[Young stormlord]

I think that septa is the mother of Tienne Sands, former lover of prince Oberyn of Dorne.

Here's what another of his former lovers said:

Far off to the north, a haze was visible low on the horizon. Kojja pointed at it. “There is the coast of Dorne. Sand and rocks and scorpions, and no good anchorage for hundreds of leagues. You can swim there if you like, and walk to Oldtown. You will need to cross the deep desert and climb some mountains and swim the Torentine. Or else you could go to Gilly.”

“You do not understand. Last night we . . .”

“. . . honored your dead, and the gods who made you both. Xhondo did the same. I had the child, else I would have been with him. All you Westerosi make a shame of loving. There is no shame in loving. If your septons say there is, your seven gods must be demons. In the isles we know better. Our gods gave us legs to run with, noses to smell with, hands to touch and feel. What mad cruel god would give a man eyes and tell him he must forever keep them shut, and never look at all the beauty in the world? Only a monster god, a demon of the darkness.” Kojja put her hand between Sam’s legs. “The gods gave you this for a reason too, for . . . what is your Westerosi word?”

“Fu**ing,” Xhondo offered helpfully.

“Yes, for fuc*ing. For the giving of pleasure and the making of children. There is no shame in that.”

Sam backed away from her. “I took a vow. I will take no wife, and father no children. I said the words.”

“She knows the words you said. She is a child in some ways, but she is not blind. She knows why you wear the black, why you go to Oldtown. She knows she cannot keep you. She wants you for a little while, is all. She lost her father and her husband, her mother and her sisters, her home, her world. All she has is you, and the babe. So you go to her, or swim.”

Here's what the man himself had said:

Arianne Martell had grown up expecting that one day she would wed some great lord of her father’s choosing. That was what princesses were for, she had been taught . . . though, admittedly, her uncle Oberyn had taken a different view of matters. “If you would wed, wed,” the Red Viper had told his own daughters. “If not, take your pleasure where you find it. There’s little enough of it in this world. Choose well, though. If you saddle yourself with a fool or a brute, don’t look to me to rid you of him. I gave you the tools to do that for yourself.”

The freedom that Prince Oberyn allowed his ******* daughters had never been shared by Prince Doran’s lawful heir.

And here's what good septa Lemore had said to Tyrion:

“Good morrow, Hugor.” Septa Lemore had emerged in her white robes, cinched at the waist with a woven belt of seven colors. Her hair flowed loose about her shoulders. “How did you sleep?”
“Fitfully, good lady. I dreamed of you again.” A waking dream. He could not sleep, so he had eased a hand between his legs and imagined the septa atop him, breasts bouncing.
“A wicked dream, no doubt. You are a wicked man. Will you pray with me and ask forgiveness for your sins?”
Only if we pray in the fashion of the Summer Isles. “No, but do give the Maiden a long, sweet kiss for me.”
Laughing, the septa walked to the prow of the boat. It was her custom to bathe in the river every morning. “Plainly, this boat was not named for you,” Tyrion called as she disrobed.
“The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor. We should glory in our bodies, for they are the work of gods.”
<snip>
“I missed the ridgeback.” I was watching the naked woman. “I am sad for you.” Lemore slipped her robe over her head. “I know you only rise so early in hopes of seeing turtles.”
“I like to watch the sun come up as well.” It was like watching a maiden rising naked from her bath. Some might be prettier than others, but every one was full of promise. “The turtles have their charms, I will allow. Nothing delights me so much as the sight of a nice pair of shapely … shells.”
Septa Lemore laughed.

I don't know why, but Lemore's words sound so Oberyn to me...

 

[Needle]

I agree YS. I have said I thought that was who she was but with no real reasoning, just a feeling.

Have been thinking that Doran probably doesn't know about Aegon. If he does, why send his son to Dany? The original pact was for Arienne and Viserys, so it would make much more sense to pair Arienna with Aegon. This does not mean however that Oberyn did not know, and sent "Lemore" to be with Aegon.

 

[Boaz]

I dunno if Doran knows about Aegon. I know the Targs wedded brother to sister, but I don't think the Dornish do. Think of Arianne's betrothal to Viserys. Viserys's brother was married to Arianne's aunt... Visery's was Arianne's uncle in-law. (I dunno the proper terminology) The same level of relationship was there for Dany and Quentyn. But a match between Aegon (Elia's son) and Arianne (Doran's daughter) is of first cousins.

 

[Needle]

I dunno if Doran knows about Aegon. I know the Targs wedded brother to sister, but I don't think the Dornish do. Think of Arianne's betrothal to Viserys. Viserys's brother was married to Arianne's aunt... Visery's was Arianne's uncle in-law. (I dunno the proper terminology) The same level of relationship was there for Dany and Quentyn. But a match between Aegon (Elia's son) and Arianne (Doran's daughter) is of first cousins.

A point well taken, one I had not thought of I admit. So maybe Doran does know, which seems to increase the likely hood of "Lemore" being the Dorish connection.

 

[Young stormlord]

I agree YS. I have said I thought that was who she was but with no real reasoning, just a feeling.

Have been thinking that Doran probably doesn't know about Aegon. If he does, why send his son to Dany? The original pact was for Arienne and Viserys, so it would make much more sense to pair Arienna with Aegon. This does not mean however that Oberyn did not know, and sent "Lemore" to be with Aegon.

Oberyn doesn't have to send the good septa anywhere. Church itself would have done that. Where do soiled septa's go? Illyrio and Varys are exceptionally good when it comes to finding people to serve their needs: Barristan Selmy, Tyrion Lannister, Griff...

Hell, they needed a septa, they found banished one, which has some connection to little prince's family. Of course, it could also mean that both Oberyn's septa and Ashara are one and the same person, but it is unlikely

 

[Raul]

Naah. Lemore is Aegon's real mother,plain and simple, so question is who is Aegon's real father...

 

[Tywin]

Naah. Lemore is Aegon's real mother,plain and simple, so question is who is Aegon's real father...

As obvious as this is, it hadn't really occurred to me.

Let's take it a step further and say that if Lemore is the mother, then Oberyn Martell is the father, and young 'Aegon' is the brother of Tyene Sand.

This makes perfect sense from the point of view of Dorne wanting to give support. This gives the possibility of having a Dornishman on the throne.

I wonder if it isn't also important that Oberyn dies before Aegon is revealed?

 

[Raul]

there is problem with alignment Seems all Oberyn descendants had widows peak, nobody mentioned Aegon got one... besides Aegon had quit strong Targaryen look, which both Oberyn and Lemore lacked, too bad, that would have been great theory

 

[Tywin]

there is problem with alignment Seems all Oberyn descendants had widows peak, nobody mentioned Aegon got one... besides Aegon had quit strong Targaryen look, which both Oberyn and Lemore lacked, too bad, that would have been great theory

1) Lemore could dye her hair (this is one active theory floating around on the forums)
2) After the whole Ned Stark / Baratheon / Lannister geneology discussion from AGOT, somebody might have explained to GRRM how genetics work (two dark-haired people can have a blonde kid, but not the other way around).

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Septa Lemore is... Howland Reed.

I honestly hope that Septa Lemore is just what she appears. A despoiled septa who was bannished, possibly for sleeping with her lord and getting Preggers from him.