Robert E. Howard's Conan and racism

[Nerds_feather]

so i'm getting the urge to read some Conan, and i've only ever read a couple short stories. also can't say i loved them--i had a very hard time getting past the racism. but that got me searching, and i found this pretty interesting blog post on the topic:

http://simoncarryer.blogspot.com/2010/01/conan-and-racism.html

that makes me want to ask those who have more experience with Conan books than i do:

*how do you deal with the blatant racism when you read REH?
*what do you think it means?
*do you see it as a stumbling block to your enjoyment of the stories, or is it jsut context and zeitgeist you can work around?

 

[Connavar]

I'm sensitive to racism in older lit I might enjoy because of my background.

Howard is one of writers I enjoy reading most and racism is the last reason people don't read him. He has prejudices like any pulp author who wrote for old American readers who wanted their villains to be black savages or Asian stereotypes villains. His Conan stories has many black savage villains and few stories Conan saves the white dame from middle eastern,black barbarian. I don't call that racism since that's hero thing that happens in western fiction today.

I just finished reading and enjoying his Solomon Kane stories and half was set in historical African setting of slave era but Not omg racism! People make you believe these things because they think he was a southern man who must be like the rednecks they see in fillms. Not a writer who was more interested about making barbarians his heroes,characters no matter their skin color.

His weird westerns set contemporary south have more troubling racist issues because they are about whites,blacks,hate. Not hate from the writer.

Simple see for yourself and forget the myths,rumors.

 

[Nerds_feather]

i don't really purport to know much about REH himself, just found a lot of descriptions of "black savages" really offensive in the new stories i've read. i mean, it is par for the course for those times, but i find it hard to get past. i'm curious if people do get past it, and if so, how they do so.

not saying there's a right or wrong way to approach it either. just opening it up for discussion.

 

[Fried Egg]

I have read most of the Conan stories and I must admit that I don't find them particularly racist. Politically incorrect, certainly, but racist? Sometimes, black warriors become Conan's companions and he has dalliances with black women. Some of the black peoples are portrayed as savages but others aren't. I don't really see what the problem with that is? I certainly didn't detect a general dislike or hatred towards black people.

I think there definitely were underlying assumptions about race and even unconscious prejudices making themselves felt in his writing but I just accept this as part and parcel of the time and place in which these stories were written and it doesn't stop me appreciating Howard's excellent writing.

 

[HareBrain]

I don't have a problem if an author seems to unconsciously reflect the prejudices of his day, which is how the Conan stories struck me. Let's face it, few of us would have been any better. What I find off-putting is where a writer seems to be seeking to affirm or reinforce those prejudices.

 

[Connavar]

i don't really purport to know much about REH himself, just found a lot of descriptions of "black savages" really offensive in the new stories i've read. i mean, it is par for the course for those times, but i find it hard to get past. i'm curious if people do get past it, and if so, how they do so.

not saying there's a right or wrong way to approach it either. just opening it up for discussion.

That's nothing compared to he today American audiences don't have problem with black gangster stereotype in film. I read crime books written by white authors boasting with use nigger when there is no need.

If you want avoid a legendary storyteller for what you watch today in films then it's your choice.

I find Kung fu Chinese stereotype in Hollywood offending but its not racist.....

 

[Vertigo]

Bearing in mind when they were written I don't really find them racist. As others have said, politically incorrect maybe, but only reading them now, in their day they wouldn't even have been considered politically incorrect. I find Burroughs worse for racism but then he was 25 years older than REH so again, you have to make allowances for the times.

 

[Nerds_feather]

I have read most of the Conan stories and I must admit that I don't find them particularly racist. Politically incorrect, certainly, but racist? Sometimes, black warriors become Conan's companions and he has dalliances with black women. Some of the black peoples are portrayed as savages but others aren't. I don't really see what the problem with that is? I certainly didn't detect a general dislike or hatred towards black people.

I think there definitely were underlying assumptions about race and even unconscious prejudices making themselves felt in his writing but I just accept this as part and parcel of the time and place in which these stories were written and it doesn't stop me appreciating Howard's excellent writing.

well said, nicely reasoned argument. i think i'll give it another go...where would you recommend starting? like i said, i've only read a few short stories.

 

[Vertigo]

Take a look in this recent thread NF.
http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/532915-robert-e-howard-conan-and-friends.html
There are a few recommended collections in that thread (note almost all of Howard's Conan stories are shorts apart from one, I think). I bought the three volumes of Del Rey collections (secondhand and pretty heafty tomes, book names are in that thread).

 

[Fried Egg]

well said, nicely reasoned argument. i think i'll give it another go...where would you recommend starting? like i said, i've only read a few short stories.

One of my favourite Conan stories has always been "Red Nails" so you could do worse than reading that one next...

 

[steve12553]

I don't pretend to be as old as Robert E. Howard would have been but, I've been around for a while. During my time on Earth I've seen Negroes become Black, then Afro-American, then African- American. Orientals became Asian-Americans. Mexicans became Hispanics. Cultures change. People try change their image in an attempt to make their cultures grow and evolve. I fully believe that a day will come when cultures and races blend to the point that the differentiation of today will look as crude and wrong to the future human as writing of the last two centuries looks to the current human. It may take 500 years but the concepts of racial and ethnic purity are in violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Cultures and races will atropy. That is something that will happen and slowly is happening. Bottom line: things were different when Howard wrote. Take into account the context of his times and enjoy the writing. I try to do this with everything I read. And really, most of what we read here is Science Fiction and Fantasy. Isn't context and suspension of disbelief what it's all about?

 

[Vertigo]

Steve, I like to think I'm pretty good at making allowances for the time that a book was written but the one thing that totally pulls me out of a book is misogyny. Now that is not always present in older books but it's certainly pretty common. To cite one example of an apparently harmless adventure romp that I just can't read; Poul Anderson's Flandry books. I just end up wanting to throw them across the room (and that's really not a very good idea with an eReader!).

I would also add that blatant racisim would do the same thing, but just making all the baddies black doesn't quite make that grade. Let's face it even Tolkien kind of did that.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

To be frank, you'll find that kind of thing in just about any pulp writer of the time. Not condoning or justifying, just recognize that it's part of the era. If you can't separate that out, you should probably avoid pulp writers almost entirely. For a simple comparison of how much less racist Howard's writing is compared to some contemporaries, read a few Doc Savage, The Shadow, The Spider, and H. P. Lovecraft pieces.

 

[Extollager]

Here's a resource of some interest re Tolkien.

http://brigandage.blogspot.com/

 

[Overread]

Honestly I don't mind it at all when I sit down to read fantasy. Racism, sexism, nationalist - etc... I don't sit down to read a fantasy book or story because I want to read a politically correct recreation of modern people living in a different world and setting. I want to read about a different world; a different setting and a different culture.

For those reasons I've no problem if the culture I'm reading about hates white people or black or people with 2 heads or dragons. It's not a reflection of society I live in, its a reflection of the one I'm reading about in the fantasy story.

So long as its written and kept within story context and isn't a verbal beat-down of the authors own prejudices onto the reader I'm totally fine with whatever the author chooses to throw at me. Yes I might not agree with the hero's choices; yes I might feel that I don't agree that all the 2 headed troll people with pink skin should be killed because they don't have purple skin - but that is part about reading a fantasy story to me.

 

[Vertigo]

Some interesting reading there Extollager.

OR, I pretty much agree with what you say. Most of the time at least, it's just sometimes I find it too much in my face and that kicks me out. But to be fair it's not often and I've never had any problem with the Conan stories in that respect.

 

[Timba]

Honestly I don't mind it at all when I sit down to read fantasy. Racism, sexism, nationalist - etc... I don't sit down to read a fantasy book or story because I want to read a politically correct recreation of modern people living in a different world and setting. I want to read about a different world; a different setting and a different culture.

For those reasons I've no problem if the culture I'm reading about hates white people or black or people with 2 heads or dragons. It's not a reflection of society I live in, its a reflection of the one I'm reading about in the fantasy story.

So long as its written and kept within story context and isn't a verbal beat-down of the authors own prejudices onto the reader I'm totally fine with whatever the author chooses to throw at me. Yes I might not agree with the hero's choices; yes I might feel that I don't agree that all the 2 headed troll people with pink skin should be killed because they don't have purple skin - but that is part about reading a fantasy story to me.

Nicely put, this is exactly how I feel about it also. I read to escape, if the writing allows me to do that I am happy.

When I want to be serious and deal with or think about racism, misogyny or agism, homophobia, et cetera, I simply pick up a newspaper, turns out there is plenty to be addressed right here in these oh so ...er, um... progressive times.

 

[nomadman]

To be frank, you'll find that kind of thing in just about any pulp writer of the time. Not condoning or justifying, just recognize that it's part of the era. If you can't separate that out, you should probably avoid pulp writers almost entirely. For a simple comparison of how much less racist Howard's writing is compared to some contemporaries, read a few Doc Savage, The Shadow, The Spider, and H. P. Lovecraft pieces.

This is not really true. Though a lot of pulp writers may have been cut from the same cloth, it's not fair to say all were. To take a prominent example, Harold Lamb was one of the most prolific and well regarded writers for Adventure magazine in the 1920s and 30s, and routinely featured non-white, non-Christian characters in his stories, often in the main roles. Not only were his stories extremely even-handed in their portrayals of said characters, but they were also very popular among his many -- I would assume white American -- fans.

Regarding Howard, to my mind, he had pretty clear, though not extreme, racist views, and to excuse this as "just a symptom of the times in which he lived" is a cop out, IMO. This isn't to say I dislike reading him or consider him less of an artist; many of my favorite writers had their dark sides. But it's also not something I'm willing to sugarcoat either.

 

[steve12553]

Honestly I don't mind it at all when I sit down to read fantasy. Racism, sexism, nationalist - etc... I don't sit down to read a fantasy book or story because I want to read a politically correct recreation of modern people living in a different world and setting. I want to read about a different world; a different setting and a different culture.

Absolutely, if you can't read things that aren't politically correct, you truely can't read anything. If someone writes with the fear of offending someone else, there is no honesty in the writing. If I use the expression "walking on eggs," am I offending chicken lovers or egg farmers or even chickens themselves? People need to develope a thicker skin. Political correctness in writing is dishonest writing. And worse yet, as Howard wrote Fantasy, it is only up to the reader to believe that the dark skinned people in his fantasy world actually represent a group of people in the real world. I myself would choose to believe that this stuff took place somewhere that doesn't really exist outside the mind.

 

[Nerds_feather]

This is not really true. Though a lot of pulp writers may have been cut from the same cloth, it's not fair to say all were. To take a prominent example, Harold Lamb was one of the most prolific and well regarded writers for Adventure magazine in the 1920s and 30s, and routinely featured non-white, non-Christian characters in his stories, often in the main roles. Not only were his stories extremely even-handed in their portrayals of said characters, but they were also very popular among his many -- I would assume white American -- fans.

Regarding Howard, to my mind, he had pretty clear, though not extreme, racist views, and to excuse this as "just a symptom of the times in which he lived" is a cop out, IMO. This isn't to say I dislike reading him or consider him less of an artist; many of my favorite writers had their dark sides. But it's also not something I'm willing to sugarcoat either.

interesting reply, especially as it forwards an opinion that goes against the majority of replies to this thread, that readers should get past/dismiss the racism.

are you still able to enjoy Conan stories yourself? if so, how do you personally deal with the racism and your own feelings of discomfort as you encounter them?