Holly Lisle

[Brian G Turner]

I've been checking out the Holly Lisle website after seeing Anne Lyle list her writing course as a credit, and there are some interesting pieces on the website.

One I've just read that I found especially good is "How to Tell Who WON’T Make It in Writing (and How Not to Be That Writer".

It's a great piece on how attitude can defeat your writing goals.

http://hollylisle.com/how-to-tell-who-wont-make-it-in-writing-and-how-not-to-be-that-writer/

 

[Venusian Broon]

Nice article IB,

I was reading it though, when I thought: well most of what she is saying is true but....

oh darn Fail!!!!


The Big But actually is a really insidious fault, I think it automatically comes with the pride (sometimes delerious joyous ecstasy!) of actually finishing a piece of writing. It is deadly though. We can never get reminded enough of its evil.

 

[RcGrant]

I love Holly Lisle's articles. I've yet to read any of her books, unfortunately, but I've spent many an hour absorbing (and probably failing to follow) her advice. Good link, Brian.

 

[Glitch]

Interesting article. Now all we have to do is put it into practice!

 

[Kaldaur]

"The art of conversation does not consist of thinking of the next witty thing you’re going to say while waiting for the other person to breathe so you can jump in and say it. It consists of actually listening and responding."

How often do we meet people like this? A great point to make about the fallible author complex.

 

[Sapheron]

"The art of conversation does not consist of thinking of the next witty thing you’re going to say while waiting for the other person to breathe so you can jump in and say it. It consists of actually listening and responding."

How often do we meet people like this? A great point to make about the fallible author complex.

That very much reminds me of how I used to respond to critiques on this website. Perhaps some of you will remember.

How embarrassing.

 

[Kaldaur]

Sapheron, I'm sure we've all been guilty of that, both in and out of our roles as authors. I know that when I'm trying to impress someone in conversation, I often worry about what next to say. In the process, I completely miss what that person was speaking about.

Time to resolve an attitude adjustment!...I'm sorry, I didn't read your post, I was too busy thinking of my reply.

 

[Hex]

I'd love to be one of those people who can think of something clever to say during the course of a conversation (rather than four days later in the middle of the night).

Um. I'm sure it's subtler than this but (!) what does one say in conversation if one disagrees with what someone says? 'How interesting...' 'My goodness, I never thought of that...' 'What an excellent question...'?

(but what if you're still going 'BUT I wanted the characters to be unsympathetic' in your head -- will you ever be a published writer then, or is it just about disagreeing out loud?)

 

[Venusian Broon]

(but what if you're still going 'BUT I wanted the characters to be unsympathetic' in your head -- will you ever be a published writer then, or is it just about disagreeing out loud?)

I can think of authors who have managed this feat and been published, so if your novel is strong perhaps it'll work! (David Zindell's Requiem for Homo Sapiens springs to mind, helped by Danlo, the whiniest most irritating protagonist I've ever come across.)

However, I'm not sure if he meant it to be that way ...

 

[Brian G Turner]

(but what if you're still going 'BUT I wanted the characters to be unsympathetic' in your head -- will you ever be a published writer then, or is it just about disagreeing out loud?)

I think you're allowed to *think* it.

But if someone with more experience has just offered an opinion that, if acted upon, may significantly increase your chances of being published, it needs to be considered. You just need time to digest it to determine if that's going to be true or not.

In which case you say, "Hmm, I'd not thought of that. I'll have to explore it and see how it works for me. Thank you. "

I figure.

The more I'm reading about structure, the more I realise that scenes I was perfectly happy with before can be dropped, and that other scenes need emotional elements drawing out of them more. I can accept that - I came to the understanding myself. If someone had told me to do this before that moment, I would presume they simply misunderstood my story.

Perhaps "learning the craft" could be said to be as much about having humility enough to be open to new ideas that may just help you make your story better. But regardless of all advice given, that's it's something you've got to understand when enacting.

 

[The Judge]

what if you're still going 'BUT I wanted the characters to be unsympathetic' in your head

I think the right attitude -- and therefore the right thing to say -- is "I was hoping that by making the characters unsympathetic I would [reason inserted]. Do you not think that would work?" or, more importantly, "How do you think I could make that work?" The further advice may help you to make up your mind as to whether it is something to be followed or not.

 

[Anne Lyle]

(but what if you're still going 'BUT I wanted the characters to be unsympathetic' in your head -- will you ever be a published writer then, or is it just about disagreeing out loud?)

I agree with Brian - you can think what you like, but if you don't at least consider the advice you've been given, then you're wasting that person's time and shouldn't have bothered asking in the first place.

Also, like it or not, unsympathetic characters are a harder sell. Not impossible, but certainly harder.

 

[Hex]

Yes, I think that's a much better response (and 'but I...' isn't a very good one).

Just, this kind of certainty always makes me twitch. I want to suggest a controlled trial to see who gets published and who doesn't based on their responses to suggestions.

"What a wonderful idea. Thank you so much. I will go and start implementing it now" is just a cleverer and more mature way of responding. It doesn't mean someone's actually going to listen (nor does the instant response, "But I intended it..." mean that someone isn't going to find the value in what you say when they go away and think about things).

(incidentally, I almost never want my characters to be unsympathetic -- it was a random example -- so if they strike you that way please tell me!)

 

[Toby Frost]

I think it's a defensive mentality that needs to be discouraged, as much as a response to specific criticism. It's a bit like instinctively saying "No, you're wrong" to any criticism: in this situation you're saying "Yes, but it's intentional and hence a good thing".

 

[Shane Enochs]

Thank you so much for posting this Brian. It's always important for us to understand that we have to be more on the side of modesty than pride to make it in this business.

 

[James Coote]

I think you're allowed to *think* it.

But if someone with more experience has just offered an opinion that, if acted upon, may significantly increase your chances of being published, it needs to be considered. You just need time to digest it to determine if that's going to be true or not.

In which case you say, "Hmm, I'd not thought of that. I'll have to explore it and see how it works for me. Thank you. "

I figure.

If you have a "But..." thought, then you've probably not understood the criticism. Just saying "Yes, ok, I get it" when you don't means you lose a valuable opportunity to further probe the critic.

Usually, if you provide some further information as to what you're trying to achieve, then you hint to the critic that you didn't get it and maybe they need to put it another way for you, and at the same time provide additional context that may help them elaborate

Critic: "You should re-write the story in third person."
You: "Ah, ok. I always thought it was better to write in first person to help the reader better relate to the mc"
Critic: "Well, it depends, but in your case I think it would be better because....."