Theological Dispute (1200 words)

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The Judge

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Noble tradition has reared its head again, so here, in honour of my 4,000th post, is another bit from my fantasy WIP. Sorry it's so very long.

As the thread title says, the ostensible subject of this scene is a theological dispute, in particular the issue of aniconism – (Ha! That’s guaranteed to stop everyone reading further!) – that is, the avoidance of images in religious worship. However, that’s just a peg on which I’m trying to hang the real meat of the scene, not least the power struggle within the church delegation, and the implicit threat to Chais as daughter of a mapmaker.

While I want to deal with the religious aspects properly, I obviously don’t want to write a religious tract, so what I’ve tried to do is summarise the arguments. Basically, for those who understand the issues, is this short-changing either side? For those who don’t or didn’t, is it clear? For those who couldn’t care, is it too long and boring?

By way of background: the castle is hosting a banquet, and the guests have just arrived. Most of the clergy are from the T’densk delegation and we already know that of the two senior clerics Todvulf is a fundamentist and Annzgar isn't. Of the delegation only Annzgar has seen inside the castle, and this is how it was described:

Facing him on the wall above the landing, illumined by torches, was a painting. A masterpiece.

The Blessed Advocate stood there, taller than any man, the tears of the All-High upon his cheek, the sweat of the All-High upon his brow. A gold-leaf cartouche flamed in his right hand, the Paraclete, his great sword, in his left. The Deceiver, in the guise of a huge scaled lizard-monster, its foul breath a putrid cloud of grey mist, roiled in its death throes at the Advocate’s feet, while its minions lay slain in their thousands at his back.


We also know from other scenes that the cartouche, their main religious symbol, is a hexagon standing on one point.

NB This is the end of a scene which is in Chais’s POV, but I’ve deliberately given her no thoughts in this section in order to keep things moving. The opening paragraphs will appear a bit confusing with the names of the different people, but this is Chapter 26 so anyone who’s got this far will know who everyone is.

~~~~

One or two of the T’densk clerics and several nobles stopped at the garden and Chais heard murmurs of admiration, but Todvulf passed it without looking, stalking forward in his aggressive, limping, gait, part-supported by a stick. His face was set in a scowl that matched the Signore’s. Ingretin’s expression was of thin malice. Chais curtseyed as they neared.

Welcomes, acknowledgements – warm and insincere on her mother’s part, cold and insincere on Ingretin’s and the Signore’s. Silence from Todvulf. A bustle, a few courtesies, fewer pleasantries, and her mother led them through the tower and into the inner courtyard. The lower servants lined the walls and made reverences to the Signore and the clergy.

Chais followed her mother as she and Piacenti separated, moving to either side of the yard, allowing the T’densk clerics their first glimpse of the painting of the Advocate. Gasps came, exclamations of awe and delight, and one growled voice of dissent.

“Magnificent, is it not,” said Annzgar, standing with Todvulf.

“Remarkable,” said Archprovost Lammert at his other side.

“A lie,” said Todvulf. “A blasphemy.”

Annzgar turned to him. “How so? You think the representation inaccurate in some way? In the depiction of the Advocate’s features, perhaps? Or is it that you believe yourself fully acquainted with the Deceiver’s true likeness?”

“It lies because it purports to depict what cannot, what may not, be depicted. The All-High is unknowable and cannot be encompassed by such idle show.”

“This is not a picture of the All-High, but of His Advocate, a man who was known, a man who lived among our forebears, who walked the roads we walk, saw the lands we see. A man, furthermore, whose description is given in the very many writings of those who knew him.”

“It is an implied representation of the All-High as Conqueror of the Deceiver.”

“Surely not. It is, rather, a true representation of the Advocate himself, showing his defeat of those enemies whom he did face in life, with those enemies, themselves aspects of the Deceiver, represented in allegory.”

“The Blessed Advocate bore within him the fluid of the divine, so to represent him in any barren image is to demonstrate contempt for that divinity.”

“We each bear within our souls some minute particle of that holy fluid which flows from the All-High, yet the Work enjoins us to remember the faces of our kin, lest we forget ourselves, and to carry their images with us always.”

Todvulf thumped his stick onto the stones of the yard. “To carry their image in our minds and memories,” he said, his voice rising in impatience. “Not literally to possess and wield lifeless semblances created from base physical material. Nowhere in the Work is the creation of such hollow, vain, dishonest effigies approved.”

“Nowhere in the Work is the creation of any manner of depiction deprecated or condemned. Further, how can we deny to the Advocate the honour which we show so readily to the High Fathers, whose many portraits adorn the Citadel?”

Annzgar turned away from Todvulf. “My Lady di Masoura, I hope you will forgive two tedious clerics their theological disputes. Shall we continue to the hall?”

She smiled in agreement, but before she and Annzgar could move Todvulf was talking again.

“It is a snare,” he said, raising his stick and pointing at the fresco. “A temptation laid by the Deceiver to seduce men into worshipping one man’s skill, instead of the One who gave them life.”

Annzgar glanced at him, then at the other clerics huddled behind them, most of whom wore expressions of concern. He looked back to Todvulf. “On the contrary,” he said placidly. “It is an aid by which our thoughts may be brought to the All-High himself, since those who see it will be drawn to remembrance of the Advocate’s life, and through remembrance into further veneration of his work. It is a means of helping our imperfect vision to imagine perfection. Spectacles for the soul, one might say.”

“Images are painted shutters barring the light of the All-High, so that heed and contemplation are given to the Thing, the corporeal, and not to the Not-thing, the Transcendence.”

“Rather they are clear windows made of the thinnest glass, windows of the finest translucence, through which we may receive that wondrous light.”

Provost Gotti stood next to Todvulf. He cleared his throat. “I have always thought it but a short step from worshipping the All-High by the agency of an image to the worshipping of the image itself.”

“A short step for one who is sottish, perhaps,” said Annzgar, regarding him coolly, “or for another who is halt. But for those who are not already lame in mind, it is no more liable to trip them in their thoughts than level ground would trip a man who is neither deformed nor drunk.”

Several of the clergy made small noises of shock and dismay at the deliberate gibes – the Provost’s weakness was evidently well known. Gotti flushed and fell silent. Todvulf’s scowl grew darker. He limped to the marble steps, then mounted to the landing.

“This.” He raised his stick to the picture and pointed to the Advocate’s sword. “This is what faces all sinners, all heretics, all mapmakers and their filth. The Hallowed Paraclete, that holy tongue of cleansing flame, will cut their canker from the body of the faithful.” His voice was harsh in its passion.

“‘Without me you are lost,’ said the Lord. Lost. And the blasphemy of the mapmaker is to say that we are not lost, that we can find ourselves in this world.” He moved up the steps to the left and reached higher. “This.” He pointed to the image of the gold-leaf cartouche in the Advocate’s hand.

“This is the only map required for man. The glorious Map of Life. Here is the road we will take, this our journey. The stages given to us by the All-High – conception, birth, adulthood, death.” One by one, starting with the lowest, he hit the four painted medallions on the central spine of the cartouche as he spoke.

“And with this Map, the All-High has given us His guide to take us from the blood of birth to the blood of death and unto His radiant seat of gold. The four requirements – faith, duty, obedience, discipline.” Again he rapped against the fresco with his stick, hitting the four smaller medallions at the two vertical sides of the cartouche. “These are what will bring us to him. Nothing more.”

He turned to them again. His eyes burned in their sockets. “Nothing more is needed. To seek more is blasphemy. To seek knowledge is blasphemy. To seek order in this world of disorder is blasphemy.”

“How well you make your point, my dear brother in the Lord,” said Annzgar. “And how convenient you had a picture to enable you to expound upon the issue in this way.”

Todvulf snarled, twisted back to the painting and struck it hard with his stick. The plaster cracked under the blow, and a gash ran through the Advocate’s body and up his outstretched arm to the cartouche, where it shattered. Gilded flakes rained down upon the stairs, mantling Todvulf in shards of gold.

“Ah, my dear Todvulf,” said Annzgar. “Covered in gilt at last, I see.”


(PS If anyone has experience of frescoes and how easily or otherwise the plaster shatters I’d love to know!)
 
Noble tradition has reared its head again, so here, in honour of my 4,000th post, is another bit from my fantasy WIP. Sorry it's so very long.
Congratulations on the 4000 posts, TJ.

Your excerpt didn't feel long at all (which I believe is a good thing).

Basically, for those who understand the issues, is this short-changing either side? For those who don’t or didn’t, is it clear? For those who couldn’t care, is it too long and boring?
  1. I'm not a student of the issues inherent in aniconsim, so I can't say whether you've short-changed either side. One side, Todvulf's, has the most of the expounding; the other, Annzgar's, has the best of the undercutting remarks.
  2. Given that, I found the arguments to be very clear.
  3. I also found the argument rather amusing and (whether tilted or not) in Annzgar's favour, though I expect some neutrals (in the story) might think he threw away the moral high ground somewhat by alluding to Todvulf's disability, as well as the far more acceptable hinting at the Provost's liking for drinks not free of ethanol.
My overall impression is very favourable. Being able to take what must be a dry subject to most people and make it entertaining is a skill not to be dismissed.


By the way, I think the word, sottish, is rather too close to another word, one describing the nationality of our friends in the far north, which may give rise to a description of the Provost in readers' minds of a kind you may not have intended.
 
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hiya, TJ, congrats on the 4000th. I enjoyed this, had no problem with the theology (possibly the irish in me), had a few comments, which may or may not make sense...

One or two of the T’densk clerics and several nobles stopped at the garden and Chais heard murmurs of admiration, but Todvulf passed it without looking, stalking forward in his aggressive, limping, gait, part-supported by a stickthe commas really didn't work for me in this sentence. I suspect they're perfect english, but they disrupted the flow for me. I also couldn't quite marry up aggressive with the limping, stick supported walk. .


“Surely not. It is, rather, a true representation of the Advocate himself, showing his defeat of those enemies whom he did face in life, with those enemies, themselves aspects of the Deceiver, represented in allegory.”I liked this and could hear a sort of pinchy, prissy dialect very clearly.




Annzgar glanced at him, then at the other clerics huddled behind them, most of whom wore expressions of concern. He looked back to Todvulf. I'd have liked a new paragraph. “On the contrary,” he said placidly. “It is an aid by which our thoughts may be brought to the All-High himself, since those who see it will be drawn to remembrance of the Advocate’s life, and through remembrance into further veneration of his work. It is a means of helping our imperfect vision to imagine perfection. Spectacles for the soul, one might say.”



“A short step for one who is sottisI nearly read it as scottish, which gave me a smile...,” said Annzgar, regarding him coolly, “or for another who is halt- the connection with the lame was good, but the link to the mind seemed to not quite work for me, in terms of my understanding of halt. .. But for those who are not already lame in mind, it is no more liable to trip them in their thoughts than level ground would trip a man who is neither deformed nor drunk.”


“‘Without me you are lost,’ said the Lord. LostI felt this needed an emphasis of some sort.. And the blasphemy of the mapmaker is to say that we are not lost, that we can find ourselves in this world.” He moved up the steps to the left and reached higher. “This.” He pointed to the image of the gold-leaf cartouche in the Advocate’s hand.





He turned to them again. His eyes burned in their sockets ow :eek:Nothing more is needed. To seek more is blasphemy. To seek knowledge is blasphemy. To seek order in this world of disorder is blasphemy.”

“How well you make your point, my dear brother in the Lord,” said Annzgar. “And how convenient you had a picture to enable you to expound upon the issue in this way.”I like this guy. I do like a practical voice.


“Ah, my dear Todvulf,” said Annzgar. “Covered in gilt at last, I see.”


(PS If anyone has experience of frescoes and how easily or otherwise the plaster shatters I’d love to know!)can't help with frescoes, sorry. regarding plaster in old buildings, though, it depends on the amount of damp, the surface they were originally rendered onto. If it's damp, it'll come off in slabs, esp if the damp was there when it was put up. .
 
Now that Springs has mentioned it, I did stumble a bit over this:
One or two of the T’densk clerics and several nobles stopped at the garden...
On first reading, I thought
One or two of the T’densk clerics, and several nobles, stopped at the garden...
might be better, but I would also prefer
Several nobles, and one or two of the T’densk clerics, stopped at the garden...
I only suggest the latter because (I think) 'several' sounds slightly less vague, numerically speaking, than 'one or two'. (What I mean is that though 'several' isn't specific, it doesn't have that same sense of not being sure that the words 'one or two' do.)

As to the 'aggressive limping', I saw Todvulf jabbing his stick at the ground with some force as he walked, force that didn't arise only from his use of the stick to maintain his balance.
 
My only experience with frescoes is viewing those at Pompeii and Herculaneum. While some are shattered, they are 2,000 years old. I do know they are supposed to be painted on while the plaster is still wet, so any mistakes can't be fixed later. And I suppose that includes any breakages by fundamentalist clerics.

As for the story, I liked it and I'd be happy to read more. I'm expecting the seeking of knowledge (and Todvulf's opposition to it) to play a major role in the rest of the story.
 
Congratulations on 4000!

I think this is all clear, and it covers both sides nicely.

The characters are quite enjoyable, and probably more so if I knew them better.

I just had a couple of comma comments:

One or two of the T’densk clerics and several nobles stopped at the garden and Chais heard murmurs of admiration, but Todvulf passed it without looking, stalking forward in his aggressive, limping, I would not use this commagait, part-supported by a stick.

...

She smiled in agreement, but before she and Annzgar could moveI would use a comma here Todvulf was talking again.

Perhaps, in the "sottish" issue, the word "sotted" might suffice? It would give less ...geographical connotations. :D
 
Very well written overall, I will get back to you with a more detailed critique
 
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Sorry, time limit caught me. It reminds me very much of Neal Stephenson's Anathem in overall tone. Is this taking place on Earth or a Fantasy world completely? And is there any parallel between this dispute and the real life Iconoclast controversy in the Byzantine Empire?
 
I thought it was all very clear and not too long. For me, I wasn't particularly interested in the discussion at the beginning, but it became more absorbing as it went along.

I agree with Ursa:

I expect some neutrals (in the story) might think he threw away the moral high ground somewhat by alluding to Todvulf's disability

I felt that he lost some of the moral high ground when he said that, and I was liking him up until that point.

I don't know if being an aniconist goes with being a Fundamentist, but if it does and Annzgar already knew where Todvulf stood, then I think even less of him for choosing to bait him. (I can only call it that. If he meant to start a serious discussion in the spirit of ironing out their differences, I hardly think he would have chosen just before a banquet to do it.)

This is just so that you know what kind of impression he was making on me, in case you intended it to be purely favorable. Perhaps you didn't. Perhaps they are both supposed to look intolerant.

And I knew from this line

“A lie,” said Todvulf. “A blasphemy.”

that the fresco was toast. Is it necessary that Todvulf walks with a stick?
 
I don't know if being an aniconist goes with being a Fundamentist, but if it does and Annzgar already knew where Todvulf stood, then I think even less of him for choosing to bait him. (I can only call it that. If he meant to start a serious discussion in the spirit of ironing out their differences, I hardly think he would have chosen just before a banquet to do it.)

I got the impression Annzgar gave up trying to iron out their differences long ago. Todvulf strikes me (and frescoes :)) as the kind of man who acknowledges no middle ground -- it's all black and white, it's his way or the wrong way.
 
Thanks, everyone, both for the kind comments and the corrections -- it's all of real help.

Re the commas, some of them have been in and out so often they've installed a revolving door... I'll have another go with them. And yes, Ursa, that's how I had the clerics and nobles line originally and then changed it via a dozen alternatives, so I think I'll have to change it back again. I'll also think about a better alternative to "sottish" -- I don't want to upset any Northern Britons... :p

Is this taking place on Earth or a Fantasy world completely? And is there any parallel between this dispute and the real life Iconoclast controversy in the Byzantine Empire?
It's a kind of Italy c1485, so no connection with real iconoclasts, but there's a distinct touch of Savonarola.

I thought it was all very clear and not too long. For me, I wasn't particularly interested in the discussion at the beginning, but it became more absorbing as it went along.
That's excellent news.

I felt that he lost some of the moral high ground when he said that, and I was liking him up until that point.
I'm actually quite pleased with that, because although he isn't as intolerant of dissent, he isn't meant to be quite as likeable as he appears at first sight. And, yes, although he didn't start this argument, he does deliberately bait Todvulf in the next chapters so it's good to know that's coming through already, so it won't appear too out of the blue.

And I knew from this line
“A lie,” said Todvulf. “A blasphemy.”
that the fresco was toast. Is it necessary that Todvulf walks with a stick?
Oddly, when the line was written I had no intention of him hitting it! As for the stick, I've made a lot of his bodily infirmity before, as it's to do with something in his past, although the stick itself was a late insertion as I need him to use it in a later scene. Does it appear too obvious a device?

Todvulf strikes me as the kind of man who acknowledges no middle ground -- it's all black and white, it's his way or the wrong way.
I had to laugh at this -- it's practically a summary of something Annzgar says to another character back in chapter 7!

Thanks again, everyone.
 
Really liked it, I thought the debate was absorbing and most importantly didn't come off as polemical (as religion-focussed literature can be). I do have a couple of comments: one that I thought that, as well-written as the dialogue was, it comes across a bit script-like with no actions to punctuate it at times. (Though I'm guilty of over-actioning things so take that with a pinch of salt).

Also, though I'm no expert on frescos, I thought the shattering of the cartouche was a nice little dramatic flourish for the scene - also facilitating my favourite line of the piece, 'Covered in gilt at last,' - and although it did seem a bit improbable that it would shatter so easily, it was only because you mentioned it and I gave it extra thought. If I'd read it off the bat, I probably wouldn't have flagged it.

Basically, it was excellent and I really enjoyed it!
 
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Thanks, amw! I was worried about the lack of action in the first half, as they are just standing there, so I'll definitely need to add something.

Re the shattering, I was hoping that his hitting the gold leaf with the stick initially would have raised a few unnoticed hairline cracks which the later thwack exacerbated, but googling hasn't helped so far in confirming that.
 
It reads easily and neither left me bored nor lost. I noticed on thing with the commas, though.
One or two of the T’densk clerics and several nobles stopped at the garden and Chais heard murmurs of admiration, but Todvulf passed it without looking, stalking forward in his aggressive, limping, gait, part-supported by a stick.
I think the red highlighted comma could be removed. It made me stumble in the rhythm of this sentence.
 
One or two of the T’densk clerics and several nobles stopped at the garden and Chais heard murmurs of admiration, but Todvulf passed it without looking, stalking forward in his aggressive, limping, gait, [the comma after limping could be removed, and it would read more smoothly -- but it does give a halting feel to the sentence which works well with its subject, so I'm not sure] part-supported by a stick. His face was set in a scowl that matched the Signore’s. Ingretin’s expression was of thin malice. Chais curtseyed as they neared.

Welcomes, acknowledgements – warm and insincere on her mother’s part, cold and insincere on Ingretin’s and the Signore’s. Silence from Todvulf. A bustle, a few courtesies, fewer pleasantries, and her mother led them through the tower and into the inner courtyard. The lower servants lined the walls and made reverences to the Signore and the clergy.

Chais followed her mother as she and Piacenti separated, moving to either side of the yard, allowing the T’densk clerics their first glimpse of the painting of the Advocate. Gasps came, exclamations of awe and delight, and one growled voice of dissent.

“Magnificent, is it not,” said Annzgar, standing with Todvulf.

“Remarkable,” said Archprovost Lammert at his other side.

“A lie,” said Todvulf. “A blasphemy.”

Annzgar turned to him. “How so? You think the representation inaccurate in some way? In the depiction of the Advocate’s features, perhaps? Or is it that you believe yourself fully acquainted with the Deceiver’s true likeness?”

“It lies because it purports to depict what cannot, what may not, be depicted. The All-High is unknowable and cannot be encompassed by such idle show.”

“This is not a picture of the All-High, but of His Advocate, a man who was known, a man who lived among our forebears, who walked the roads we walk, saw the lands we see. A man, furthermore, whose description is given in the very many writings of those who knew him.”

“It is an implied representation of the All-High as Conqueror of the Deceiver.”

“Surely not. It is, rather, a true representation of the Advocate himself, showing his defeat of those enemies whom he did face in life, with those enemies, themselves aspects of the Deceiver, represented in allegory.”

“The Blessed Advocate bore within him the fluid of the divine, so to represent him in any barren image is to demonstrate contempt for that divinity.”

“We each bear within our souls some minute particle of that holy fluid which flows from the All-High, yet the Work enjoins us to remember the faces of our kin, lest we forget ourselves, and to carry their images with us always.”

Todvulf thumped his stick onto the stones of the yard. “To carry their image in our minds and memories,” he said, his voice rising in impatience. “Not literally to possess and wield lifeless semblances created from base physical material. Nowhere in the Work is the creation of such hollow, vain, dishonest effigies approved.”

“Nowhere in the Work is the creation of any manner of depiction deprecated or condemned. Further, how can we deny to the Advocate the honour which we show so readily to the High Fathers, whose many portraits adorn the Citadel?”

[I'm actually not sure about the whole of the previous exchange, sorry. It's clear they've had this discussion many times before (if not, why not?) and they're both very learned men, and yet here they're going over the very basics, and to me it doesn't feel realistic -- unless they're each trying to sway those around them, who might not have heard these arguments before. If this isn't the case, I'd rather they got straight into the advanced stuff and gave us the impression that this is a continuation of a previous discussion]

Annzgar turned away from Todvulf. “My Lady di Masoura, I hope you will forgive two tedious clerics their theological disputes. Shall we continue to the hall?”

She smiled in agreement, but before she and Annzgar could move Todvulf was talking again.

“It is a snare,” he said, raising his stick and pointing at the fresco. “A temptation laid by the Deceiver to seduce men into worshipping one man’s skill, instead of the One who gave them life.”

Annzgar glanced at him, then at the other clerics huddled behind them, most of whom wore expressions of concern. He looked back to Todvulf. “On the contrary,” he said placidly. “It is an aid by which our thoughts may be brought to the All-High himself, since those who see it will be drawn to remembrance of the Advocate’s life, and through remembrance into further veneration of his work. It is a means of helping our imperfect vision to imagine perfection. Spectacles for the soul, one might say.[like this image]

“Images are painted shutters barring the light of the All-High, so that heed and contemplation are given to the Thing, the corporeal, and not to the Not-thing, the Transcendence.”

“Rather they are clear windows made of the thinnest glass, windows of the finest translucence, through which we may receive that wondrous light.”

Provost Gotti stood next to Todvulf. He cleared his throat. “I have always thought it but a short step from worshipping the All-High by the agency of an image to the worshipping of the image itself.”

“A short step for one who is sottish, perhaps,” said Annzgar, regarding him coolly, “or for another who is halt. But for those who are not already lame in mind, it is no more liable to trip them in their thoughts than level ground would trip a man who is neither deformed nor drunk.”

Several of the clergy made small noises of shock and dismay at the deliberate gibes – the Provost’s weakness was evidently well known [seems odd for the POV to remark on the offence to Gotti but not Todwulf, which would be at least as obvious. It also surprises me that Annzgar would deliberately bait Todwulf in such a way. I can't see what he would hope to gain from it -- but if he genuinely does have something to gain, then fine.] Gotti flushed and fell silent. Todvulf’s scowl grew darker. He limped to the marble steps, then mounted to the landing.

“This.” He raised his stick to the picture and pointed to the Advocate’s sword. “This is what faces all sinners, all heretics, all mapmakers and their filth. The Hallowed Paraclete, that holy tongue of cleansing flame, will cut their canker from the body of the faithful.” His voice was harsh in its passion. [Last line redundant, I think.]

“‘Without me you are lost,’ said the Lord. Lost. And the blasphemy of the mapmaker is to say that we are not lost, that we can find ourselves in this world.” He moved up the steps to the left and reached higher. “This.” He pointed to the image of the gold-leaf cartouche in the Advocate’s hand.

“This is the only map required for man. The glorious Map of Life. Here is the road we will take, this our journey. The stages given to us by the All-High – conception, birth, adulthood, death.” One by one, starting with the lowest, he hit the four painted medallions on the central spine of the cartouche as he spoke. [Ooh, is it based on the Tree of Life of the Kaballah?]

“And with this Map, the All-High has given us His guide to take us from the blood of birth to the blood of death and unto His radiant seat of gold. The four requirements – faith, duty, obedience, discipline.” Again he rapped against the fresco with his stick, hitting the four smaller medallions at the two vertical sides of the cartouche. “These are what will bring us to him. Nothing more.”

He turned to them again. His eyes burned in their sockets [agree with Springs, I think the mention of sockets somehow makes it seem more literal]. “Nothing more is needed. To seek more is blasphemy. To seek knowledge is blasphemy. To seek order in this world of disorder is blasphemy.”

“How well you make your point, my dear brother in the Lord,” said Annzgar. “And how convenient you had a picture to enable you to expound upon the issue in this way.” [Hah! Pwned.]

Todvulf snarled, twisted back to the painting and struck it hard with his stick. The plaster cracked under the blow, and a gash ran through the Advocate’s body and up his outstretched arm to the cartouche, where it shattered. Gilded flakes rained down upon the stairs, mantling Todvulf in shards of gold.

“Ah, my dear Todvulf,” said Annzgar. “Covered in gilt at last, I see.”


(PS If anyone has experience of frescoes and how easily or otherwise the plaster shatters I’d love to know!)

Great writing in general; my only real problem was with the theological arguments at the start, though at the end, when the conflict between the clerics had become more heated and personal, they worked better. Reminded me a bit of The Name of the Rose, which might be worth reading.
 
Thanks, both. That comma is one of the revolving-door ones, Aber, so I'll definitely need another think about it.

Actually, HB, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have had this discussion before, not with each other, as it simply wouldn't have arisen earlier in the Delegation's journey, and if Todvulf had said anything beforehand Annzgar would probably have ignored him -- it's the presence of Chais's mother which makes a big difference here, to both of them. I'm also not sure how I could slip into the rest without the earlier bit as Todvulf only reacts after getting increasingly annoyed. A good point, though (as are the others) so I'll have a ponder whether I can do anything about it.

If the cartouche has any relation to The Tree of Life then it's purely accidental, as I've only glanced at that when trying to understand odd comments in the work of someone not a million miles from this post. Is it so similar it looks like copying, do you think? As for The Name of the Rose, I read that years ago (loved it but had to skip huge swathes of description...). I don't remember any aniconism, only the dispute over whether God laughs, but I see what you mean about the similarity in the two men talking. Todvulf doesn't swallow poisoned paper, though. He's got far too much to do.
 
red=delete
blue=insert
pink=comment


One or two I think you could be more precise here one, two or several of the T’densk clerics and several nobles stopped at the garden. and

Chais heard murmurs of admiration, but Todvulf passed it without looking, stalking forward in his aggressive, limping, gait., part-supported by a stick. Do you need this - we already know he's limping

His face was set in a scowl that matched the Signore’s. Ingretin’s expression was of thin malice. Chais curtseyed as they neared.

Welcomes, acknowledgements – warm and insincere on her mother’s part, cold and insincere on Ingretin’s and the Signore’s. Silence from Todvulf. A bustle, a few courtesies, fewer pleasantries, and her mother led them through the tower and into the inner courtyard. The lower servants lined the walls and made reverences to the Signore and the clergy.

Chais followed her mother as she and Piacenti separated, moving to either side of the yard, allowing the T’densk clerics their first glimpse of the painting of the Advocate. Gasps came, exclamations of awe and delight, and one growled voice of dissent.

“Magnificent, is it not,” mused said Annzgar, standing with Todvulf.

“Remarkable,” said reason for deletion in above line - repetition Archprovost Lammert at his other side.

“A lie,” said more said Todvulf. “A blasphemy.”

Annzgar turned to him. “How so? You think the representation inaccurate in some way? In the depiction of the Advocate’s features, perhaps? Or is it that you believe yourself fully acquainted with the Deceiver’s true likeness?”

“It lies because it purports to depict what cannot, what may not, be depicted. The All-High is unknowable and cannot be encompassed by such idle show.”

“This is not a picture of the All-High, but of His Advocate, a man who was known, a man who lived among our forebears, who walked the roads we walk, saw the lands we see. A man, furthermore, whose description is given in the very many writings of those who knew him.”

“It is JJ said always use contractions in dialogue an implied representation of the All-High as Conqueror of the Deceiver.”

“Surely not. It is, rather, a true representation of the Advocate himself, showing his defeat of those enemies whom he did face in life, with those enemies, themselves aspects of the Deceiver, represented in allegory.”

“The Blessed Advocate bore within him the fluid of the divine, so to represent him in any barren image is to demonstrate contempt for that divinity.”

“We each bear within our souls some minute particle of that holy fluid which flows from the All-High, yet the Work enjoins us to remember the faces of our kin, lest we forget ourselves, and to carry their images with us always.”

Todvulf thumped his stick onto the stones of the yard. “To carry their image in our minds and memories,” he said, his voice rose rising in impatience. “Not literally to possess and wield lifeless semblances created from base physical material. Nowhere in the Work is the creation of such hollow, vain, dishonest effigies approved.”

“Nowhere in the Work is the creation of any manner of depiction deprecated or condemned. Further, how can we deny to the Advocate the honour which we show so readily to the High Fathers, whose many portraits adorn the Citadel?”

Annzgar turned away from Todvulf. “My Lady di Masoura, I hope you will forgive two tedious clerics their theological disputes. Shall we continue to the hall?”

She smiled in agreement, but before she and Annzgar could move Todvulf was talking again.

“It is a snare,” he said, raising raised his stick and pointing pointed at the fresco. “A temptation laid by the Deceiver to seduce men into worshipping one man’s skill, instead of the One who gave them life.”

Annzgar glanced at him, then at the other clerics huddled behind them, most of whom wore expressions of concern. He looked back to Todvulf. “On the contrary,” he said placidly. “It is an aid by which our thoughts may be brought to the All-High himself, since those who see it will be drawn to remembrance of the Advocate’s life, and through remembrance into further veneration of his work. It is a means of helping our imperfect vision to imagine perfection. Spectacles for the soul, one might say.”

“Images are painted shutters barring the light of the All-High, so that heed and contemplation are given to the Thing, the corporeal, and not to the Not-thing, the Transcendence.”

“Rather they are clear windows made of the thinnest glass, windows of the finest translucence, through which we may receive that wondrous light.”

Provost Gotti stood next to Todvulf. He cleared his throat. “I have always thought it but a short step from worshipping the All-High by the agency of an image to the worshipping of the image itself.”

“A short step for one who is sottish, perhaps,” said Annzgar, regarding him coolly, “or for another who is halt. But for those who are not already lame in mind, it is no more liable to trip them in their thoughts than level ground would trip a man who is neither deformed nor drunk.”

Several of the clergy made small noises of shock and dismay at the deliberate gibes – the Provost’s weakness was evidently well known. Gotti flushed and fell silent. Todvulf’s scowl grew darker. He limped to the marble steps, then mounted to the landing.

“This.” He raised his stick to the picture and pointed to the Advocate’s sword. “This is what faces all sinners, all heretics, all mapmakers and their filth. The Hallowed Paraclete, that holy tongue of cleansing flame, will cut their canker from the body of the faithful.” His voice was harsh in its passion.

“‘Without me you are lost,’ said the Lord. is there a quotation mark missing here? Lost. And the blasphemy of the mapmaker is to say that we are not lost, that we can find ourselves in this world.” He moved up the steps to the left and reached higher. “This.” He pointed to the image of the gold-leaf cartouche in the Advocate’s hand.

“This is the only map required for man. The glorious Map of Life. Here is the road we will take, this our journey. The stages given to us by the All-High – conception, birth, adulthood, death.” One by one, starting with the lowest, he hit the four painted medallions on the central spine of the cartouche as he spoke.

“And with this Map, the All-High has given us His guide to take us from the blood of birth to the blood of death and unto His radiant seat of gold. The four requirements – faith, duty, obedience, discipline.” Again he rapped against the fresco with his stick, hitting the four smaller medallions at the two vertical sides of the cartouche. “These are what will bring us to him. Nothing more.”

He turned to them again. His eyes burned in their sockets. “Nothing more is needed. To seek more is blasphemy. To seek knowledge is blasphemy. To seek order in this world of disorder is blasphemy.”

“How well you make your point, my dear brother in the Lord,” said Annzgar. “And how convenient you had a picture to enable you to expound upon the issue in this way.”

Todvulf snarled, twisted back to the painting and struck it hard with his stick. The plaster cracked under the blow, and a gash ran through the Advocate’s body and up his outstretched arm to the cartouche, where it shattered. Gilded flakes rained down upon the stairs, mantling Todvulf in shards of gold.

“Ah, my dear Todvulf,” said Annzgar. “Covered in gilt at last, I see.”


Really well written. Not that much wrong with it that the others haven't picked on:)
 
Oddly, when the line was written I had no intention of him hitting it! As for the stick, I've made a lot of his bodily infirmity before, as it's to do with something in his past, although the stick itself was a late insertion as I need him to use it in a later scene. Does it appear too obvious a device?

To me it appears too obvious a device. Apparently not to others. I was cringing for that beautiful artwork every time Todvulf opened his mouth.

And even if you didn't know when you wrote that line where the scene would go, it seems to me that the way you had things set up it was the almost inevitable dramatic culmination of the scene. (You would have been foolish to pass it by.) The stick just settled any doubts I had.

Either that, or I have undue anxieties when it comes to fine art.
 
Actually, HB, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have had this discussion before, not with each other, as it simply wouldn't have arisen earlier in the Delegation's journey

Fair point, but even with that knowledge I'm not quite happy with it, and I think the problem is more that they seem to be constructing their arguments from first principles. In NOTR, everyone cites sources left right and centre, reminding each other what Saint Whomsoever had written hundreds of years before, and I think these two would do the same -- the subject would surely have spawned an awful lot of doctrinal opinion over the years.
 
Thanks, Gary. I was worried about the three "said"s one after the other but I've yet to get a better solution. I'll have another think.

I'm not sure what to do about the stick, then, Teresa. His threat in a couple of chapters requires it, as he isn't the type to strike just with his hand, and it is anger, rather than theology, that makes him hit out here. I think I'll have to hope no one else is as perceptive!

I know what you mean about citations, HB, but I was worried that would simply make the dialogue more indigestible, especially as the issue isn't important in its own right, as God's laughter is, but just a means for me to show their antagonism again to lead into the tensions later on in the banquet. I might take a couple of paragraphs out, which would help make it read snappier, anyway. Thanks again.
 
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