Hypothetical Question#3

[MstrTal]

Ok so in another thread I asked some random hypothetical questions that had either popped into my head or been percolating in the back of my mind and now I am back for another round. This has to do with the human mind and how it works. before I get to the question itself I need to work out my own assumptions and half remembered biology so that I can be corrected if I am in error. It is, if I am remembering correctly, fairly safe to say that developmentally the human mind is 90% or more responsible for things like gross and fine motor skills, speech/ language development and such critical milestones. In other words while there is a physio-skeletal aspect and the like such, such as muscle memory and developing the proper muscles and tendons and so on, you need to first create the proper neural pathways and connections in the brain.

Alright this background on my more than likely erroneous memory out of the way onto the question.

Hypothetical Question#3: If some how an adults mind where transferred back threw time into the past along their own timeline and they ended up in their own infant body would their adult intellect overwrite their infant brain and in essence create prematurely these neural links and pathways? Granted this takes into account their infant brain surviving the trauma and the inherent elasticity of the child's mind not burning out in the process. Basically I wonder since the adult mind already knows how to speak, walk, possesses a lifetime of experience and knowledge and so on so forth would it then only be a matter or the remaining 10 or whatever% required for the physio-skeletal aspect to catch up to the mind? Also would that catching up for lack of a better term be accelerated not only because of the advanced nature of the mind but because of the person due to their frustration would be attempting everything possible to hurry along the process?

Thoughts, more knowledge on the subject or any experience with the human brain would be helpful.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I suspect it's so untried that provided you argued cohertly, either was possible. But, if it happened, there's not just the physical to consider, but the mental fall out, which would be immense.

 

[chrispenycate]

You are assuming a) that something called 'mind' exists independent of the brain (dangerous assumption) and b) that memories can be transferred separately, despite being a gestalt storage. I suspect that physical reflexes could not be simply be moved, requiring pathways to be multiply reinforced before you stop falling over; the memories of how it should be done are there, but nothing works as it should; very frustrating, and you have to go on wearing diapers. But information should copy; there's more available space in the infant brain than the more mature version (nerve cells die all the time, and don't regenerate). So, you've got an adult vocabulary, but are incapable of shaping your vocal apparatus, you remember having self control but, it being largely chemical, are now likely to try and impress people with tantrums.

The final personality will be a blend, but the adult side being so much better defined I imagine it will take precedence almost everywhere.

Excuse me

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along their own timeline and they ended up in their own infant body

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would their adult intellect overwrite their infant brain and

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in essence

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create prematurely these neural links and pathways? Granted

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this takes into account their infant brain surviving the trauma and the inherent elasticity of the child's mind not burning out in the process.

Sorry, needed that.

 

[MstrTal]

You are assuming a) that something called 'mind' exists independent of the brain (dangerous assumption) and b) that memories can be transferred separately, despite being a gestalt storage. I suspect that physical reflexes could not be simply be moved, requiring pathways to be multiply reinforced before you stop falling over; the memories of how it should be done are there, but nothing works as it should; very frustrating, and you have to go on wearing diapers. But information should copy; there's more available space in the infant brain than the more mature version (nerve cells die all the time, and don't regenerate). So, you've got an adult vocabulary, but are incapable of shaping your vocal apparatus, you remember having self control but, it being largely chemical, are now likely to try and impress people with tantrums.

The final personality will be a blend, but the adult side being so much better defined I imagine it will take precedence almost everywhere.

Excuse me somehowadult'swerethroughCommaCommaCommaCommaComma
Sorry, needed that.

Thank you for the very thought provoking response. You have given me much to think about. in regards to my horrid punctuation, well I do deserve the corrections. Punctuation has never been my strong point and it only gets that much worse when I am suffering an insomnia jag.

 

[MstrTal]

Originally Posted by chrispenycate
requiring pathways to be multiply reinforced before you stop falling over; the memories of how it should be done are there, but nothing works as it should;

Ok after a short nap I am better able to express myself.

So 1st sorry for taking the rest of your quote out of context but this is the sticky bit I was trying to convey.

If somehow one were to completely overwrite the infant brain with the adult brain, neural pathways and all not just memories, how how much is left to the physio-skeletal development until the now adult minded infant can overcome their inherent physical body handicap due to physical age?

I.E. How much of the development is actually the creation of neural and how much is the physical? Further what could such a hybridization create?

 

[Gumboot]

Firstly, you refer to the "mind" and "brain" as separate things, which they're not, really. Secondly, an adult's brain is substantially more developed than a child's; specifically the frontal cortex doesn't really develop until the late teens and doesn't fully develop until the mid to late 20s.

 

[Gumboot]

If somehow one were to completely overwrite the infant brain with the adult brain, neural pathways and all not just memories, how how much is left to the physio-skeletal development until the now adult minded infant can overcome their inherent physical body handicap due to physical age?

I.E. How much of the development is actually the creation of neural and how much is the physical? Further what could such a hybridization create?

Essentially I guess you're asking what would happen if you stuck an adult brain in a child...

Essentially as I see it they'd only be limited by their muscle ability. What we call "muscle memory" actually has nothing to do with the muscles; the idea that reflexes don't involve the brain is a myth; rather as we repeat an action the neural pathways in the brain become stronger, allowing the processing to occur more quickly. So an adult brain would have these fully developed pathways, but the muscle wouldn't physically be as well developed so there would be simple tissue issues - both in the mass of muscle but also in the makeup of muscle (there are four different muscle fibre types, with different physical properties).

Having said that, muscle develops fairly quickly, so it shouldn't take the person too long (presuming they had appropriate nutrition) to develop their muscle accordingly. It would be a bit like going through physio rehab after a long time injured, I suspect.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Hard science wouldn't allow for this. But you have a bigger question to answer. If you can send a mind back in time, and in the process essentially physically rewire an infant brain to have adult understandings, why do you have to stop there? You've already physically changed the past by physically changing a brain. So if you can do that, why can't you simply go back into the past?

Of course, if you want to avoid the materialist science base and assume that there is such a thing as a mind independent of the body then you can probably write it however you want to.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Hi,
You've already physically changed the past by physically changing a brain. So if you can do that, why can't you simply go back into the past?

Cheers, Greg.

I would assume that it might be linked to a process of cloning, so that a person clones themselves - clone arrives as a baby, then the adult makes an imprint of mind and 'cuts' this onto the newborn. No need for time travel!!

Riffing on Gumboot's thoughts, if you are essentially trying to put an adult template on a normal newborns brain then actually I'd guess that you'd lose some of the adult template - just because the newborns mind won't have the correct structures to handle it properly. There is a tremendous amount of growth still to occur for the baby to become adult in the brain.

If it is cloning your doing then perhaps you could get round this by making the brain adult from the start. Although I hope you remember not have a woman giving birth to this huge-headed individual. Physically that'll be like trying to pass a melon unharmed through a garden hose...Impossible...unless you genetically engineer a women with large enough hips.... Always a solution of sorts in SF .

 

[chrispenycate]

So if you can do that, why can't you simply go back into the past?

There are a couple of physical models of the universe which allow for sending information - you know, the winner of the 3.30 at Derby type thing, or premonitions of doom - against the time arrow, but no matter or energy (although how this information can be imposed on a physical substrate, like a brain, without expenditure of energy is outside my understanding). They hold this up, rather than over-effective predictive software, as an explanation of various prophecies and precognitions.

 

[Sapheron]

I don't know how much anyone else grew or how quickly they changed in teenagerhood, but I have less than fond memories of growth spurts resulting in temporary poor balance, smacked heads and stubbed fingers due to the time taken to adjust to new heights, lengths, weights and centres of balance. In the same way, break a few toes and its a lot harder to walk (ignoring the pain aspect, which doesn' help either) because the toes don't flex the way you're used to and this throws off the distribution of weight and centre of balance. A minute change, but enouugh to notice. Although this is only a minor related point at best, I suspect that an adult who could walk without thinking about it and suddenly found themselves using a body that was a quarter the weight and half the height would actually have to concentrate quite hard to just stay standing. It could take weeks, even months, to adapt to a such a sudden and colossal difference.

 

[stephen.samuels]

Ok so in another thread I asked some random hypothetical questions that had either popped into my head or been percolating in the back of my mind and now I am back for another round. This has to do with the human mind and how it works. before I get to the question itself I need to work out my own assumptions and half remembered biology so that I can be corrected if I am in error. It is, if I am remembering correctly, fairly safe to say that developmentally the human mind is 90% or more responsible for things like gross and fine motor skills, speech/ language development and such critical milestones. In other words while there is a physio-skeletal aspect and the like such, such as muscle memory and developing the proper muscles and tendons and so on, you need to first create the proper neural pathways and connections in the brain.

Alright this background on my more than likely erroneous memory out of the way onto the question.

Hypothetical Question#3: If some how an adults mind where transferred back threw time into the past along their own timeline and they ended up in their own infant body would their adult intellect overwrite their infant brain and in essence create prematurely these neural links and pathways? Granted this takes into account their infant brain surviving the trauma and the inherent elasticity of the child's mind not burning out in the process. Basically I wonder since the adult mind already knows how to speak, walk, possesses a lifetime of experience and knowledge and so on so forth would it then only be a matter or the remaining 10 or whatever% required for the physio-skeletal aspect to catch up to the mind? Also would that catching up for lack of a better term be accelerated not only because of the advanced nature of the mind but because of the person due to their frustration would be attempting everything possible to hurry along the process?

Thoughts, more knowledge on the subject or any experience with the human brain would be helpful.

My Phd area is pediatric science with a focus on child neurology and development. So hopefully I can help you out!

Transference of an adult mind would not necessarily impact on a infant's ability to execute basic motor patterns. Implantation of personality traits and experience, has no effect on recruitment of motor neurons which are needed for basic movement patterns. Further than development of skeletal muscle is independent of the brain, but is crucial to walking and other mile stones. Even speech is linked to the development of certain muscle groups which are independent of the brain and require simple repetition to develop.

It is however, entirely possible for an adult's mind to be transferred to a infant. A child's mind actually has a greater retention potential than that of an adult, but I would say they would suffer a locked in syndrome, and perhaps lose some of there experience over time. The reason for this is, a child's memory lacks the capacity to retain a great amount of physical memory over time, the reason being their capacity is spent in other areas. So I would guess that an amnesia effect would take place over time.

My thought is that, the person would become disabled in a relatively short space of time, due to the disturbances of their development.

 

[MstrTal]

My Phd area is pediatric science with a focus on child neurology and development. So hopefully I can help you out!

Transference of an adult mind would not necessarily impact on a infant's ability to execute basic motor patterns. Implantation of personality traits and experience, has no effect on recruitment of motor neurons which are needed for basic movement patterns. Further than development of skeletal muscle is independent of the brain, but is crucial to walking and other mile stones. Even speech is linked to the development of certain muscle groups which are independent of the brain and require simple repetition to develop.

It is however, entirely possible for an adult's mind to be transferred to a infant. A child's mind actually has a greater retention potential than that of an adult, but I would say they would suffer a locked in syndrome, and perhaps lose some of there experience over time. The reason for this is, a child's memory lacks the capacity to retain a great amount of physical memory over time, the reason being their capacity is spent in other areas. So I would guess that an amnesia effect would take place over time.

My thought is that, the person would become disabled in a relatively short space of time, due to the disturbances of their development.

Amnesia effect huh? This is an interesting concept and worth further consideration. Do you think that it is something that could be overcome over time or that the information is simply lost for good? I am also curious as to what you mean by disabled? Do you mean as in suffering some sort of mental disorder or developmental handicap?

Also thank you to everyone who has participated or humored me thus far with my odd questions.

 

[psychotick]

Hi Chris,

But how could information not be either matter (writing etc) or energy (sound waves etc)? I mean what exactly would you be sending back into the past?

Cheers, Greg.

 

[chrispenycate]

Hi Chris,

But how could information not be either matter (writing etc) or energy (sound waves etc)? I mean what exactly would you be sending back into the past?

Cheers, Greg.

Ah. I'm afraid I don't know . Change in probability of some event taking place, perhaps? Maxwell's demon does not require energy expenditure to function. You could modulate a stream of electrons (or nervous impulses) quite nicely if you could manipulate probability, without actually breaking – just mildly spraining – any of the conservation laws.

Hence precognition? Your future self manipulating the probability of a certain thought coming into your head? Considering the nature of what oozes into mine, there must be a fair margin for quantum uncertainty.

 

[David Evil Overlord]

Read the novel Helm, by Steven Gould. It features a "helmet" that holds the recorded memories of a long-dead explorer from Earth. These memories can be imprinted upon the minds of others.

There is a young man with all the memories of the woman's martial arts training, but none of the suppleness and flexibility of a trained martial artist. Ouch!

And the helm can also be used to write fanatic belief into a person's mind...

 

[stephen.samuels]

Amnesia effect huh? This is an interesting concept and worth further consideration. Do you think that it is something that could be overcome over time or that the information is simply lost for good? I am also curious as to what you mean by disabled? Do you mean as in suffering some sort of mental disorder or developmental handicap?

Also thank you to everyone who has participated or humored me thus far with my odd questions.

Stargate SG1 did this plotline well and came to similar conclusion, as the one I put forward.

 

[nightdreamer]

It's not the same thing at all, but The Brain Machine (also called The Fourth "R") by George O. Smith might serve to inspire.