A question on POV's

[ASleepyGiraffe]

What do you think is the maximum number of POV characters, that can be used before a normal reader gets fed up and puts the book down?

Obviously there are individual differences and some readers love multiple characters whereas other people just get confused by too many names and places. Of course it all depends on the plot and how well the narrative is delivered, but I was just wondering how many you think are too many, if that makes sense.

Cheers Tim.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think it's a case of common sense - you need to keep the reader immersed in both the story and the characters, so you need to make a judgement on whether volume of characters, rather than strength, is becoming more of a focus for the story.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

It also depends on how it's done. Game of Thrones has something like 15 separate POV characters over the course of the series, but each has their own chapter to themselves. If Martin switched within a chapter several times that would make me hurl the book across the room and give bad word of mouth. Though not a gushing fan, he does a good job handling this many POV characters with ease.

 

[WmPreston]

Do you mean first-person POV, or a limited omniscient POV that lets us hear various individual points of view (as with, say, Tolstoy or Porter's Ship of Fools)?

Assuming you mean the first: Something to think about is how well the many points of view schema works for the kind of story you're telling. I think many short chapters with many first-person POVs has because an easy default, especially in genre writing. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, and no inherent limit, but you have to ask to what extent it's purposeful for your particular story.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I'm suspecting the first referred to is what I call 3rd close (with no technical knowledge if I should or not.) I think there's a couple of things to consider: how you deliniate each, what each brings to the story that someone else can't - I have one character who only has 2 pov scenes, but, to me, they're important and c. how much space you devote between each one.
I read one recently which had 2 first person pov shared, and it worked well, but they were well delineated and ascribed.

 

[Boneman]

If the story carries you along, I think (think!) there can be very many...ulp! Dune has an awful lot, and my favourite book of all time (Shogun) has head-hopping that would be sneered upon today. But the stories are so magnificent, so rich and absorbing, that it don't matter a jot...

So that's simple then: write an incredibly rich tapestry of interwoven plots/characters/tropes/ideas and lay them out with incredible skill, panache, and a touch of daring that enthralls the reader to the point that he doesn't notice. Sigh... back to the drawing board...

 

[Warren_Paul]

I think there should always be a character or two that while present take priority for PoV, unless that scene is not suited from their PoV, but I don't think there can really be too many PoV characters as long as there is a good reason for having each one. Just be careful about trying to introduce too many backgrounds at once as the reader might get lost in all the detail. Usually PoVs are built up over the series, not all at once. Start with a couple, get the reader to know them, then slowly add more PoVs as you go when called for.

If the character is going to make a considerable contribution to the story by being a PoV character, or if there are details which only that character knows that need to be mentioned, then it should be one.

 

[Gumboot]

It also depends on how it's done. Game of Thrones has something like 15 separate POV characters over the course of the series, but each has their own chapter to themselves. If Martin switched within a chapter several times that would make me hurl the book across the room and give bad word of mouth. Though not a gushing fan, he does a good job handling this many POV characters with ease.

15? To date A Song of Ice and Fire has 31 POV characters!

 

[Venusian Broon]

I think there are many considerations when thinking about this.

My twopennysworth here is that a many-PoV approach seems to me the 'natural' approach if you have a very complex plot and character situation. And if you are writing in a linear, 'real-time' fashion. i.e. like a movie - start at the start and move forward till you get to the end!

The reason is that if you restrict yourself to one or a few PoV's then to get across the full plot either you have to ensure that the these PoV's get to see everything (and run the risk of forcing you the writer to put in contrivances that may not be realistic...'Ah now Mr Bond, before I kill you let me tell you in detail my life story and plans so you know why I wanted to do all this'), or I suppose you leave them a bit in the dark and drift to a omniscient type of approach to fill in the details for the reader.

By having many PoVs you can afford to leave characters in the dark, allowing them to behave realistically, and the reader gets the full picture. Of course it puts you the Author in a bit of pressure to not 'forewarn' your own character of events.

Of course there are lots of different ways around this. Loads of first person books I've read, use reminisicing. i.e. the character is 'writing down' what has happened to them way in the past, which justifies the author putting in information that the character at the time would just not know, but is important for the reader to understand.

 

[Ursa major]

15? To date A Song of Ice and Fire has 31 POV characters!

The maximum number in any one book is eighteen (including one each for the prologue and epilogue), I believe, in A Dance with Dragons.

 

[Bowler1]

If the story carries you along, I think (think!) there can be very many...ulp! Dune has an awful lot, and my favourite book of all time (Shogun) has head-hopping that would be sneered upon today. But the stories are so magnificent, so rich and absorbing, that it don't matter a jot...

Shogun managed head hopping very well and there is even one scene where he head hops characters going up a hill that was wonderful. I'd stay well away from such an attempt, it takes skill. If you have not read the book, it's very good and worth a look. A how to head hop master class!

I think to craft a story you need to switch characters a number of times to vary the plot but not too much to confuse the plot. The rest is up to the writer.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

It all depends on the reader. And I hate to say this, as I always seem to in POV threads, but I again have to bring up Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. *winces* One of the jumpiest series I've ever come across.


Was I frustrated by all the POV shifts? Yes. Frustrated enough to throw them across the street? No.


Would I be at this point? More than likely. I'm not saying the story premise is bad, and the characters were fleshed out enough, but the way Tad Williams set up his POV shifts was like an earthquake. Just remember that as an example. If you WILL have different POVs, then try to limit the shifting as much as possible, especially mid-chapter. (When I say mid-chapter, I mean halfway down the freaking page!)




All that said, though, I think Aditu was one of my favorite characters ever. At least until things started to come down to the wire.

 

[Dozmonic]

In Troy:Shield Of Thunder, Gemmell uses 27 unique POVs and, in my opinion, it works very well.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

In Troy:Shield Of Thunder, Gemmell uses 27 unique POVs and, in my opinion, it works very well.

Well yes. I mean, it's not that POV shifts can't be done well-they can be, and very well are. I was just pointing out that you probably shouldn't do it the way Tad Williams did, or if that's the way you DO do it, then to limit it as much as possible.


I can't imagine what sort of train wreck would occur if he had tried to do it with more than the half-dozen he had used. At some points the setting and current plot scene didn't even make sense to me because of how violent the POV shift had been. It's like that point in time when you realize you're on the weird part of Youtube. You were enjoying yourself with something you were really immersing yourself into-a Simon or Miriamele POV-and the next point you're reading up about the count, I can't remember his name-see what happens?-and after a page or two of that you realize, "How the hell did I get here?"

 

[Hex]

Diana Wynne Jones also headhops wonderfully -- there's a fantastic bit in Hexwood where she leaps heads in the middle of a rabbit-killing scene to amazing effect.

I disagree, though, that you have to show different points of view to tell a story -- many excellent books are told from one point of view (e.g. those by Patrick Rothfuss* and Carol Berg).

*I think

 

[Dozmonic]

Sorry, I hadn't read any other posts in the thread, I was just replying to the OP. I haven't read Tad Williams so I don't know how he handles it. Any use of multiple POVs had to be handled well. Try it, get it wrong a lot of times and learn what it takes to make it right.

I love Hexwood. I let a cousin borrow it and I've not seen it since. I need to get a new copy!

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Sorry, I hadn't read any other posts in the thread, I was just replying to the OP. I haven't read Tad Williams so I don't know how he handles it. Any use of multiple POVs had to be handled well. Try it, get it wrong a lot of times and learn what it takes to make it right.

I love Hexwood. I let a cousin borrow it and I've not seen it since. I need to get a new copy!

Well, if ever you DO read Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, just set yourself up for a choppy roller coaster. I don't know, you might have a better time of it than I did because I never read the first volume.

 

[Grimbear]

I don't mind POV changes, as long as it's clear what's going on. I think it's something that's easy to get hung-up on, but if you look through the average Classic there are vast quantities of POV shifts, which take place mid-chapter and mid-scene. Are we saying that these authors, whose work has lasted 100 years, can't write?

If you want I'll give some examples of this.

I think you just need to make sure that any reader knows who's POV it is at any given moment. As long as it is obvious from the start, that's fine.

Not that I'm saying that it would be fine to shift POV around 20 different characters in less than 1K words, but generally speaking it's fine.

As to how many characters I'd personally be happy with given a sprawling 10 book epic? Well, for me to feel like I knew them, could connect with them, and remember who they all were, I would be getting p----d off if there were more than say 100.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Even that would be pushing it a bit, GB. I don't think that all stories should simply have only one POV-in fact, I don't support that much at all unless the main character lineup is small, like in Thomas Covenant, but neither should you see the town through the eyes of every single one of its citizens within a day.

 

[ASleepyGiraffe]

Thanks for all the replies everyone

I certainly feel better about the number of POV's I have in my current WIP after all your advice. At the moment it stands at 11, which when compared with some other works, really isn't too many at all. Guess I'll just have to continue writing the blasted thing and make sure that each POV shift flows, and doesn't jar the reader too much. (And for those wondering I was referring to 3rd person omniscient/close - are they the same? - my bad for not putting that in the original post).