Joffrey (Spoilers for ACOK and ASOS)

[juleska]

Who killed Joffrey Baratheon? I believe I found the answer in ACOK. Shortly after the big show in the throne room where Joffrey breaks off his engagement with Sansa and pledges to marry Margaery, Sansa goes to the godswood and meets with Dontos. There Dontos reveals the first knowledge of the plans to take her away from King's Landing during Joffrey's wedding.

"You've waited so long, be patient awhile longer. Here, I have something for you." Ser Dontos fumbled in his pouch and drew out a silvery spiderweb, dangling it between his thick fingers.

It was a hair net of fine-spun silver, the strands so thin and delicate the net seemed to weigh no more than a breath of air when Sansa took it in her fingers. Small gems were set wherever two strands crossed, so dark they drank the moonlight. "What stones are these?"

"Black amethysts from Asshai. The rarest kind, a deep true purple by daylight."

"It's very lovely," Sansa said, thinking, It is a ship I need, not a net for my hair.

"Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It's magic, you see. It's justice you hold. It's vengeance for your father." Dontos leaned close and kissed her again. "It's home."

Now....if you recall, during the "big show" that same day, Joffrey was bestowing gifts and titles to people who'd helped bring about the victory against Stannis in the battle for King's Landing. And one of the people he recognized was Littlefinger, when he bestowed him with Harrenhal. This is the first Littlefinger returns to King's Landing after his departure on the King's business.

This is no surprise since we know Littlefinger is the one who always intended to spirit Sansa away, and that Dontos was only his pawn. That said...

Do we think Littlefinger would've come up with poison amethysts on his own? That seems more like Varys' trade. Could it be that Varys and Littlefinger jointly conspired to murder Joffrey? And is that how the Queen of Thorns was brought into it?

Either way, it's looking that Littlefinger was the primary architect.

 

[The Imp]

Who killed Joffrey Baratheon? I believe I found the answer in ACOK. Shortly after the big show in the throne room where Joffrey breaks off his engagement with Sansa and pledges to marry Margaery, Sansa goes to the godswood and meets with Dontos. There Dontos reveals the first knowledge of the plans to take her away from King's Landing during Joffrey's wedding.


Now....if you recall, during the "big show" that same day, Joffrey was bestowing gifts and titles to people who'd helped bring about the victory against Stannis in the battle for King's Landing. And one of the people he recognized was Littlefinger, when he bestowed him with Harrenhal. This is the first Littlefinger returns to King's Landing after his departure on the King's business.

This is no surprise since we know Littlefinger is the one who always intended to spirit Sansa away, and that Dontos was only his pawn. That said...

Do we think Littlefinger would've come up with poison amethysts on his own? That seems more like Varys' trade. Could it be that Varys and Littlefinger jointly conspired to murder Joffrey? And is that how the Queen of Thorns was brought into it?

Either way, it's looking that Littlefinger was the primary architect.

I don't think Littlefinger was the architect of the plan. Yes, he would have had access to Ser Dontos having returned, but Varys (for instance) would have had access to the drunken ex-knight every day of the week.

I need to think more about this though.

What would LF have to gain with joffrey dead? Who benefits most from the weakening of the alliance between the Lannisters and Tyrells?

 

[juleska]

Oh I could think of half a hundred reasons Petyr would love to see Joffrey feeding the crows.

While none of the Starks managed to work out what Tyrion eventually did, that Joffrey was the one who sent the knife after Bran, I think Lord Littlefinger would've strung that together easily enough....especially since he's the one who planted the lie about how the knife passed hands to begin with. So in Petyr's mind, that makes Joffrey responsible for what happened to Cat. And as he says to Ned himself, "I could never refuse your wife anything." He DID promise to help her achieve justice. I'll admit that's very uncharacteristic for Petyr, but when it comes to Cat, he seems to do all his thinking with his...*ahem*....little finger.

Add to that Joffrey's monstrous treatment of Sansa, whom Petyr sees as a young Cat. That's just kindling for the fire. Though I admit that's more of a stretch, for our Lord Baelish doesn't do anything for anyone except Lord Baelish....except for Cat of course. Then again, he did conspire to take Sansa away from the Lannisters. If not Joffrey's murder, that most certainly was his doing, and all the arrangements were his.

But I think his bigger motivation is this: Littlefinger derives his power from his ability to manipulate those who hold the seat of power. If Joffrey can't be successfully manipulated by his own mother, the master manipulator with mommy guilt to boot, then what hope would Petyr have of manipulating him? Joffrey was destined to be an absolutely terrible king, perhaps even worse than Aerys the Mad King. He was ill-tempered, hot headed and prone to feeling slighted. It wouldn't have taken much at all for anything Petyr did (or that Joffrey believed he had done) to have him end up with his head on a spike.

Joffrey was as dangerous as he was stupid, and Littlefinger knew he could not be allowed to rule. Better to put sweet, soft little Tommen on the throne....easily manipulated, and under the regency of his mother, whom Littlefinger learned to manipulate long ago.

Not to mention that Littlefinger had participated in more than one discussion on how much better things would be if Joffrey were not allowed to rule.

Littlefinger did not want Joffrey in power, I think that was plain enough. The plan seems to me to have his mark. I just can't figure how he got the amethysts and how Lady Olenna came into the plan.....unless....

If we assume Varys was the supplier of the stones (and he does serve the realm, does he not?) and we assume your theory that he is one of the Faceless Men is correct....then couldn't he have appeared to Sansa as the Queen of Thorns just for a moment?

 

[juleska]

Also, that alliance between the Lannisters and the Tyrells was never strong to begin with. I had the impression that the Tyrells were playing the Lannisters all along.

 

[Boaz]

Rereading ASOS...

I know there was a longer and more detailed discussion of this a long time ago, but I cannot find it. Posters had suspects other than Middlefinger and the Tyrells, but none of them ever seemed really plausible. And I always assumed the Tyrells and Middlefinger were the culprits. Yes, I know Baelish leads Sansa to this conclusion... and he's a natural born liar always seeking to consolidate his hold on her. But there were never any other good suspects....

Who benefits most from the weakening of the alliance between the Lannisters and Tyrells?

The prime beneficiary is Tommen... all others can only benefit by lesser degrees... and yet Tommen did not do it.

Dontos gave Sansa the hairnet and demanded she wear it to the wedding. The dwarf woman at High Heart dreamed of death in a hairnet Tyrion poured out the dregs of Joffrey's cup. Sansa noticed a missing amethyst when she fled to the godswood after Joffrey's death. Littlefinger pointedly asked Sansa if any fiddled with her hairnet... and Sansa thought of The Queen of Thorns. And so Sansa's conclusion, and ours, is supposed to be that Dontos deliverd the poison to Sansa who carried it to Olenna who poisoned Joffrey's wine.

Sansa is often compared with and contrasted to Cersei. One of their biggest similarities is the propensity for reaching incorrect conclusions. Sansa thinks Olenna poisoned Joffrey's wine... and Cersei thinks Tyrion did it.

So who could have done it?

Oberyn? Oberyn went to Tyrion's cell and confessed he was glad that he was not a suspect. He also hinted that he's already poisoned or is planning to poison Tywin. Earlier in that chapter, Pycelle told of a poison that would rot a man from the inside out. But while scheming on how to exact vengeace for Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon by killing Tywin and Sandor, would Oberyn really poison Joffrey? Sure it forestalls the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, but it does not guarantee a Lannister-Martell alliance. No, the Martells would need sure allies in Cersei, Kevan, Jaime, Tyrion, or Daven before they would eliminate Joffrey and crown Mycella.

Varys? He could easily do it. In AGOT, Illyrio urged him to speed things up. Keeping the foolish and cruel Joffrey on the throne would undoubtedly keep the realm uneasy and may crucially push the Tyrells into open war with the Lannisters... whild putting the mild and obediant Tommen on the throne would promote harmony among the great houses. I think Varys wanted more anarchy, not less.

Pycelle? He had access to the poison. But he serves Tywin in all things... if he did it, it was only on Tywin's orders. He did admit under oath that the poison is the strangler.

Tywin? Just before the wedding, Joffrey had confronted Tywin. Tywin got a full taste of what Tyrion had been dealing with. He knew Joffrey would not only never be grateful, but would be actively resentful even after Tywin left office. I think Tywin knew Joffrey had to go... but I don't think he wanted it at that time nor in that manner. Tywin wanted stability. He'd have waited until Tommen was older and able to consumate a marriage to Margaery. And he's always for decorum. I believe he'd have arranged an accident or seeming natural causes for Joffrey's death far from the viewing public.... he'd never have made a spectacle of it. He'd never have made Cersei watch. He'd have had his scapegoat ready to take the fall, not his own son.

Melisandre? Apart from Selyse and some of Stannis' men, I don't know of any agents she has in the Seven Kingdoms. Nor do we get a hint of a shadow.... she'd recently told Davos that Stannis was not strong enough to perform that magic again. The only thing I can think of is that she has converted a Faceless Man to her service... but I don't think there's any real evidence.

Brynden Tully or another one of Robb's followers? They are scattered and disorganized. None of them are experts at poisons, as far as I know.

Euron? Destabilizing the Lannister-Tyrell alliance benefits him greatly. Black amethysts come from Asshai, a known haunt of the Crow's Eye. One school of thought is that he used a Faceless Man to assassinate his brother Balon. He could have had Joffrey assassinated as well.

It all sounds plausible, but Joffrey was not the intended victim.

Hey, Boaz! This is going to be another of your long winded, rambling, conspiracy posts, isn't it? No... I'll end it here and resume in the next post.

 

[Boaz]

I admit the thoughts that got me rolling here are my beliefs that Cersei and Sansa don't reach the correct conclusions.

Facts according to Cressen's, Tyrion's and Jaime's POVs:

1. Tywin ordered an autopsy to determine the cause of death. (This happened a day or two before Jaime returned to KL... or mayhaps the same day... or mayhaps a day or two after.... I mean, Cersei was weeping over Joffrey's body when Jaime found her. I'm just pointing out that Qyburn was around to perform the autopsy or could have also confirmed Pycelle's findings.) And choking from food was ruled out.... and poison was declared the reason of death.

2. This was not the first death from the strangler in ASOIAF. Maester Cressen used it on Melisandre and himself in the prologue of ACOK. The result of Cressen drinking poisoned wine was almost immediate. His throat constricted very quickly and he asphyxiated.

3. In ASOS, after demanding Tyrion bring him wine, Joffrey drank and talked about the pie, he ate some of Tyrion's pie, talked some more, ate more of Tyrion's pie, started to cough, tried to drink wine, spit up the wine and collapsed. The point at which Joffrey begain to feel the effects of the strangler was after the second helping of pie.

4. Tyrion did not want any pie, but an unnamed server gave him a slice and another put a dollop of cream on top.

So... Joffrey's throat did not constrict after drinking the wine. It did not constrict after eating his first bite of pie. It constricted after the second bite of pie. He tried to clear his throat with wine, but could not swallow. I don't think the wine was poisoned. I don't think the pie was poisoned. I think the cream was poisoned.

This means that Tyrion was the target, not Joffrey.

So who wanted Tyrion dead?

Joffrey? Yet why would he eat poisoned pie if he knew it was poisoned? I think Joffrey's plot against Tyrion at the wedding was confined to the jousting dwaves. But shortly before the wedding, Tyrion guessed that Joffrey knew about Tyrion's suspicion of Joffrey's involvment in Bran's attack. Nor would Joffrey want to risk harm to Sansa, his plaything.

Cersei? At fist glance, I think she's a good suspect. I can imagine her wanting to look Tyrion in the eyes as he died. I can imagine her wanting to get away with it in front of everyone. I can imagine her horror in seeing her plan backfire. I can imagine she immediately declared Tyrion the killer in order to kill him anyway. But, Cersei's POVs in AFFC don't lead me to think she accidentally killed her own son.

Tywin? No. Too sloppy. Too public. And Tyrion was still useful.

Oberyn? I think he's also a good suspect. He was peeved at Tyrion's lies and forestalling. He could have wanted to destablize the Small Council further and put one of his own pals in Tyrion's place. Killing Tyrion may have endeared Oberyn to Cersei or mayhaps have irked her for slighting Lannister honor and power.

Pycelle? Mahaps. But he'd need a ready scapegoat since he'd be a suspect. Did he have a plan to implicate Oberyn?

Varys? I did not see him named at Joffrey's wedding feast. Destabilization prior to Aegon's and/or Dany's arrival is his goal. So he helped Tyrion escape... more damage to Lannister authority. I think Shae has been working for him for a long time... and Shae asked in multiple chapters to be allowed to attend the feast just to see the pigeons fly out of the pie. She wanted to be there at that precise moment. She may have been Varys' original (knowing or unknowing) choice for the dispenser of the cream.

Middlefinger? Discord benefits him. Also, he may have suspected Tyrion was on to his financial irregularities as the previous Master of Coin. Some sort of confusion may have been crucial to his scheme for spiriting Sansa away.

The bottom line is that I now think Oberyn, Varys, or Baelish tried to publicly poison Tyrion and Joffrey got in the way.

 

[Boaz]

But.... if the effects of the strangler, ie. the Tears of Lys, portrayed in Cressen's and Joffrey's deaths are not meant to be forensically objective, then I think that the Tyrells poisoned Joffrey.

If the constriction of Joffrey's throat was not purposefully dissimilar, then the poison could easily have been in the wine. If the poison was in the wine, then I believe Olenna was more capable than any of doing the deed.

Olenna used a cane. She had a waspish tongue. People, even her social peers, did not want to engage with her. Young people at a wedding feast surely don't want to endure lectures. Olenna moved around on the dais using her cane. It would not seem strange if she used her off hand to steady herself as well. People would avoid looking at her. With everyone watching the jousters and then Joffrey's outburst at Tyrion, she could have slipped the pellet with the poison into the chalice from the palace. And the five Kingsguard standing behind or to the side of the dais might not have even seen Olenna if she was being flanked by Left and Right.... who could have also done it.

Of course, she'd not be alone in the murder. Margaery had to know. She'd have to know to avoid the king's cup after the jousting dwarfs. Garlen may have been in on it as well... he was the soul of courtesy to Sansa and he went out of his way to praise Tyrion's efforts in the defense of KL. This acknowledgement of heroism and intelligence emboldened Tyrion to defy Joffrey in front of the entire realm... fanning the flames to give Olenna more time.

Mace and Alerie might have known as well. They probably had been warned not to drink from the king's cup once the dwarfs began to joust.

Anyway, I guess it's just about how to relate the effects of the strangler.

 

[therapist]

I'm currently rereading this aswell. I was always sold on Olenna being the mastermind behind this. Is there any good reason not to believe this? It all works out perfectly for her. The Tyrells arn't suspected, and Margery pretty much gets to replace Joffrey with Tommen, a huge win.

Although now you have me doubting myself. Didn't littlefinger admit to hiring the dwarves for entertainment, which riled up Tyrion and made him the prime suspect?

 

[Boaz]

If Middlefinger had the cream poisoned, then only he, an agent, and the poisoner (if the agent was not the poisoner himself) knew about the plot. Dontos did not know... he suspected, but was only trusted to be Sansa's contact. Baelish did not hire the dwarfs for the feast. He brought them to KL and then told Joffrey how they could embarass Tyrion. Joffrey hired them.

If Olenna poisoned the wine, then Margaery and all the Tyrells (Mace, Alerie, Loras, Garlan, and Leonette) on the dais also needed to know. Perhaps even Left and Right and other guards knew as well. Yes, you are correct.... the Tyrells benefit, but only if Margaery marries Tommen.

 

[Koopa]

If Middlefinger had the cream poisoned, then only he, an agent, and the poisoner (if the agent was not the poisoner himself) knew about the plot. Dontos did not know... he suspected, but was only trusted to be Sansa's contact. Baelish did not hire the dwarfs for the feast. He brought them to KL and then told Joffrey how they could embarass Tyrion. Joffrey hired them.

If Olenna poisoned the wine, then Margaery and all the Tyrells (Mace, Alerie, Loras, Garlan, and Leonette) on the dais also needed to know. Perhaps even Left and Right and other guards knew as well. Yes, you are correct.... the Tyrells benefit, but only if Margaery marries Tommen.

Or simply if Margaery need not marry Joffrey. I would say that alone is a huge boost for the Tyrells. Besides the Lannisters needed the Tyrells at that point.

 

[Boaz]

Tywin knew the Lannisters needed the Tyrells. Kevan knew it. Jaime knew it. All the Tyrells knew it. The Dornish, the Ironborn, Baelish, etc... everyone knew it. Only Cersei did not know it. As I continue reading in AFFC, Cersei is deterimed to get rid of the Tyrells.... the main support for Tommen.

Cersei seems to subconciously project her generation onto the next. She's Tywin's eldest, most glorious, most intelligent, most capable, and most beautiful... destined to rule. She sees Joffrey just the same... glossing over his faults. She views Myrcella like she views Jaime.... a reflection of her to be used as needed... both maimed by a sword. She loathes Tyrion as diminutive, physically lacking, and incapable.... while she does not loathe Tommen, she feels him to be severely lacking in virtues.... a fondness for girls (Tyrion had whores while Tommen had Margaery's cousins who Cersei tried to paint as whores) and both wed far too young.

But Mace wants to write his name as the greatest Lord Tyrell. The greatest was the guy who got himself appointed Lord Paramount of the Reach and Warden of the South by Aegon I. Mace got his daughter married to the King of the Seven Kingdoms so that his grandson will be King in his own turn.

Also, I need to make a disclaimer...

I think I noticed this timeline of the movements of Joffrey and his reaction to the poison all my own. But two years ago, I watched a couple of videos on the explanation of Mendellian Genetics in regards to Targaryen dragon hatching abilities after the publication of The World of Ice and Fire.... and over the last week I've wondered if I picked up the poison in the cream theory in one of those videos or mayhaps from some earlier discussion on the Chrons. For instance, I used to think I was the first person on the world wide weirwood to promote Peter Dinklage, in 2005, as Tyrion Lannister.... and someone pointed out that I was, in fact, beaten to the punch here on the Chrons.

So I guess, I'd like to think the Tyrells probably did it since they have more to gain by killing Joffrey, but the cream seems to make more sense ...that Littlefinger would kill Tyrion from afar. I dunno.

One final comment, I mentioned Varys in post #6. Doh! Of course he was not there, he was on the lam since Tyrion's escape.

 

[Judderman]

Great investigation Boaz! Tyrells with some local support make sense.
Was the cream only offered to Joffrey and Tyrion? Joffrey as intended victim and Tyrion perhaps as collateral damage? Or just that particular bowl was only offered to them? Seems unlikely Tyrion would be involved with the risk of himself eating said poison when sitting so close to Joffrey. Not sure if it was the wine or cream poisoned though.

 

[Koopa]

pretty sure that whatever was in the missing gemstone from sansa hairnet killed Joffrey. Who the big brains was behind it, or wether it was a co-production i am not certain. It's seems obvious it's either Littlefinger or the Tyrells. But whom or both, no idea. In truth, i have always been more curious about Sansa. On how much she really is an unknowing witness, or simply pretending to be one. I mean we know that she has begun to play the game as Alayne Stone. But I'm curious in how much she was aware of the game beforehand, and pretended to not be in the known. Or wether she was really clueless, and just drifting along. No doubt the shift was gradual. No doubt she was clueless and naive at the start. But it's not certain at what point she stopped being clueless and only pretending to be.

 

[Koopa]

did something wrong... so i ended up quoting my own post... oh well.

 

[Boaz]

did something wrong... so i ended up quoting my own post... oh well.

You're in your thirties now, friend. It'll happen more and more.

@Judderman The text reads, "A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream." That's it. No other mention of servers serving pie and cream. I just assume that the giant pie cut by Ilyn Payne was only for show and that there were dozens of servers pouring forth from the kitchens to deliver edible pie. Who would stop one serving man putting one slice in front of Tyrion and retreating to the kitchen for more?

1. Payne draws his sword.
2. Sansa notices Payne's sword is not Ice.
3. Payne cuts the pie.
4. Joffrey dances with Margaery.
5. A serving man serves Tyrion.
6. Tyrion finds he has no appetite.
7. Tyrion notices Sansa's unease and decides for them to get a breath of fresh air and a change of clothes because he's soaked from Joffrey dousing him with wine.
8. Joffrey confronts Tyrion and demand he serve as cupbearer.
9. Tyrion goes over to the King's place picks up the wine and brings it to Joffrey.
10. Joffrey drinks. "...drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin."
11. Margaery asks to go back to their places to recieve toasts.
12. His attention still on Tyrion, Joffrey comments on Tyrion's untouched pie.

"My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. "I'ts ill luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See it's good." Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. "Dry, though. Needs washing down." Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want..." His words broke up in a fit of coughing.
Margaery looked at him with concern. "your Grace?"
"It's, kof, the pie, noth- kof, pie." Joff took another drink, or tried to, but all the wine came spewing back out when another spate of coughing doubled him over. His face was turning red. "I, kof, I can't, kof kof kof kof..." The chalice slipped from his hand...

The poison was either in the wine or the pie. If Joffrey's coughing and drawn out and dramatic death is for literary purposes, then I suppose it's easy to say the wine was poisoned. But after he drank wine and spoke to Tyrion, he 1) ate pie, 2) spoke, 3) coughed, 4) ate more pie, 5) spoke again, 6) drank wine, 7) violently coughed... spoke, coughed, spoke, coughed, spoke, coughed, spoke, coughed, tried to drink and spit it out, spoke, coughed, spoke coughed.

The effect upon Maester Cressen from poisoned wine, in ACOK, is immediate. Joffrey's reaction is more delayed... like the poison in the cream, the crust, or the pigeon did not affect his esophagus as quickly.

I think the pie with cream was poisoned. I think one fake serving man (wearing the right clothes) could work the feast and at the right moment grab Tyrion's slice and pour poisoned cream on it and then just slip away. Varys and Littlefinger are the two most connected players who could've done this. But as I'm writing this I just realized that if Baelish did it, he did not have any way of warning Sansa from eating Tyrion's pie. What if Tyrion served her a bite? If Littlefinger was involved, then it was the wine and therefore Joffrey was the target.

If Cersei ordered poisoned pie for Tyrion, I'd love it. You guys know I love most every crackpot theory going, but there should be evidence in Cersei's AFFC POVs.

I'd love to think that Joffrey ordered Tyrion's death and blundered into the path of the assassin. But this is pretty far fetched even for me.

I think Varys and Oberyn are the leading candidates.

 

[Boaz]

I'm reading ADWD and I think I figured it out. There were two assassination plots in effect at Joffrey and Margaery's wedding. The Tyrells plotted to murder Joffrey and the Martells plotted to murder Tyrion... and maybe Twyin as well. I am going to think about it over night and post tomorrow, but I think I'm right.

 

[Boaz]

Okay, I've been busy and I'll be busy for the next week... so I'll post my thoughts without quoting the books.

We know three things... Joffrey was poisoned, Baelish told Sansa the Tyrells did it, and yet Ellaria Sand concluded that Oberyn did it.

In the Areo Hotah chapter in the middle of ADWD when Balon Swann delivered the Mountain's head, Doran was escorted back to his chambers by Aero, Arianne, Ellaria, Obara, Nymeria, Tyene, and Caleotte. After Caleotte was dismissed, Doran demanded oaths of fealty from the Sand Snakes. During the discussion of the future, Ellaria pleaded for an end to the fued with the Lannisters. She did not want her four daughters to also die. She said enough blood had been spilled... Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, and Oberyn for the Martells.... Gregor, Amory, Tywin, and Joffrey for the Lannisters. I do not know if Oberyn shared the specifics of his plots against the Lannisters, but it's clear that Ellaria, Oberyn's lover for a decade and who happened to be with him in KL, was convinced that Joffrey's death was due to Oberyn. I guess she could be lying, trying to add a king to the Lannister's side to make it appear even in order to end the blood fued.... BUT neither Doran (who claimed in this chapter to be the tall grass that hid the Red Viper and that Doran and Oberyn worked more closely than anyone ever knew), Arianne, Nym (a master poisoner), Tyene, nor Obara contradicted her. It seems they all found this conclusion believable.

Now think of the night before Shae's testimony against Tyrion. Oberyn visited Tyrion and expressed gratitude that Tyrion was immediately blamed because if people had taken a moment to think, then most of them would have suspected the most notorious poisoner in the Seven Kingdoms.... Oberyn. Interesting... not sure which way to go regarding that comment.

Then the next day after Tyrion demanded a trial by combat, Oberyn said he'd stand for Tyrion and stated, "I'm quite convinced of his innocence." Oberyn was a judge and had heard the mountain of evidence against Tyrion. Many people would be convinced of Tyrion's guilt, more suspicious people might doubt the evidence, but that does not prove Tyrion's innocence. So how could Oberyn be convinced of Tyrion's innocence in poisoning Joffrey's wine? Because Oberyn poisoned the cream sauce and meant it for Tyrion.... Oberyn masterminded the whole scheme.

I now think that the Tyrells were going to poison Joffrey with Baelish's help, but that Joffrey was accidentally poisoned by Oberyn first by eating Tyrion's pie.

And yet, if the difference between Cressen's and Joffrey's poisonings are merely dramatic license, then I'd like to believe that Joffrey was poisoned both by the wine and the pie.

 

[Judderman]

Sounds like the food taster took the right day off.