Darth Angelus
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2012
- Messages
- 477
Hi, all!
Upon reading this other ongoing thread about magic systems someone brought up how magic can be used as Deus ex Machina, which made me think about this trope, and how it sort of relates to another trope (I believe), namely when characters in a story are as strong as they need to be.
The reason I am opening this thread is that I think this topic is different enough from the topic about magic systems that I didn't want to borrow that thread for it, but I wanted to give credit to someone else for making me think of this. So thanks for that!
A previously unknown spell or magical power, suddenly given to a magic user protagonist in order to resolve a difficult situation, was correctly called (I think) Deus ex Machina in that thread. At the same time, I think the other trope is clearly used as well, because there is little or no doubt that said magic user protagonist is indeed strong as they need to be in such a situation.
Upon more careful thought, I have come to the conclusion that the two tropes seem to be rather closely related, at least in the worst cases of the latter, when it is used to suddenly upgrade the skills, powers or abilities of the hero in order to enable them to resolve a difficult situation (rather than the opposite, in which their abilities are downgraded in order for them to be challenged by opposition that should be trivial, according to previously established internal story logic). They both boil down to a situation in which the good side or the protagonists, as they have been established, are (or should be) too overmatched to have any chance of winning **, so some new force needs to be introduced late in the story in order to enable the typically required triumph of the good side.
The main difference seems to be that while Deus ex Machina introduces this new force in a new package, the strong as they need to be tropes puts it into a character that already exists. Because magic powers can be viewed as being either inside or outside the user (they are abilities of the user, but at the same time, they belong to an external system in the fictional world), it seems that the two tropes can actually overlap in that particular case.
So, which of these two tropes is the worst (in cases where they don't overlap, obviously)? In general, I think most readers would like Deus ex Machina the least. After all, almost all speculative fiction uses the strong as they need to be to some extent (I would argue), and a limited amount of it can become suspended disbelief. Where the line (of how much is too much of this trope) is drawn is subjective, I guess. However, personally, I think if the magnitude of the latter is severe enough for it to be comparable to the former, it is actually worse. Aside from making somewhat more sense from the perspective of internal logic, I think Deus ex Machina is at least more honest, because it does admit that a new force is being introduced rather than trying to hide it and pretending that nothing is even slightly off. Of course, in ideal cases, neither is used.
What do you think? Does this make any sense at all? Are these two tropes related? Do you agree with me that they are originating from the same problem? I am not sure, because they do not seem to be linking to each other as related tropes would typically be on that site, so maybe I am missing something.
** Just to develop this further, I would say that (as we would all know) with very few exceptions, any story in speculative fiction, or any other type of adventure or action story in which the drama boils down to a struggle between the good (protagonists) and bad (antagonists), the following two conditions are expected to be fulfilled...
1. The good protagonists are overmatched or at least severely challenged at some point, which means that the bad guys will generally have more or less the upper hand in a major part of the story. If this is not the case, the drama will tend to fall flat.
2. The good guys will ultimately come out of the conflict triumphant, as anything else is unsatisfactory if not unpalatable to the typical audience.
In short, the heroes beat the odds.
Writing any good story like this is largely about coming up with clever ways to fulfill both in a way that makes sense, which takes quite some imagination on the part of the author and is frankly rather difficult. On the other hand, fulfilling either one by itself is easy, if the other can be ignored. The good guys being clearly overmatched and then lose would fulfill 1 but not 2. The good guys being clearly undermatched and then win would fulfill 2 but not 1.
It is the weaker side winning that is harder to explain, for obvious reasons. The stronger side winning typically requires little or no explanation, but lacks drama.
Anyway, I would typically say that both of these tropes generally come down to the author attempting to fulfill both 1 and 2, but failing to come up with satisfactory explanations for how the two can both be true. This could be due to lack of imagination, or that they have fulfilled 1 a just bit too much.
Finally, I wasn't sure whether this thread belonged here or in the SFF lounge, so if some moderator feels it belongs elsewhere, I won't mind at all if it is moved.
Upon reading this other ongoing thread about magic systems someone brought up how magic can be used as Deus ex Machina, which made me think about this trope, and how it sort of relates to another trope (I believe), namely when characters in a story are as strong as they need to be.
The reason I am opening this thread is that I think this topic is different enough from the topic about magic systems that I didn't want to borrow that thread for it, but I wanted to give credit to someone else for making me think of this. So thanks for that!
A previously unknown spell or magical power, suddenly given to a magic user protagonist in order to resolve a difficult situation, was correctly called (I think) Deus ex Machina in that thread. At the same time, I think the other trope is clearly used as well, because there is little or no doubt that said magic user protagonist is indeed strong as they need to be in such a situation.
Upon more careful thought, I have come to the conclusion that the two tropes seem to be rather closely related, at least in the worst cases of the latter, when it is used to suddenly upgrade the skills, powers or abilities of the hero in order to enable them to resolve a difficult situation (rather than the opposite, in which their abilities are downgraded in order for them to be challenged by opposition that should be trivial, according to previously established internal story logic). They both boil down to a situation in which the good side or the protagonists, as they have been established, are (or should be) too overmatched to have any chance of winning **, so some new force needs to be introduced late in the story in order to enable the typically required triumph of the good side.
The main difference seems to be that while Deus ex Machina introduces this new force in a new package, the strong as they need to be tropes puts it into a character that already exists. Because magic powers can be viewed as being either inside or outside the user (they are abilities of the user, but at the same time, they belong to an external system in the fictional world), it seems that the two tropes can actually overlap in that particular case.
So, which of these two tropes is the worst (in cases where they don't overlap, obviously)? In general, I think most readers would like Deus ex Machina the least. After all, almost all speculative fiction uses the strong as they need to be to some extent (I would argue), and a limited amount of it can become suspended disbelief. Where the line (of how much is too much of this trope) is drawn is subjective, I guess. However, personally, I think if the magnitude of the latter is severe enough for it to be comparable to the former, it is actually worse. Aside from making somewhat more sense from the perspective of internal logic, I think Deus ex Machina is at least more honest, because it does admit that a new force is being introduced rather than trying to hide it and pretending that nothing is even slightly off. Of course, in ideal cases, neither is used.
What do you think? Does this make any sense at all? Are these two tropes related? Do you agree with me that they are originating from the same problem? I am not sure, because they do not seem to be linking to each other as related tropes would typically be on that site, so maybe I am missing something.
** Just to develop this further, I would say that (as we would all know) with very few exceptions, any story in speculative fiction, or any other type of adventure or action story in which the drama boils down to a struggle between the good (protagonists) and bad (antagonists), the following two conditions are expected to be fulfilled...
1. The good protagonists are overmatched or at least severely challenged at some point, which means that the bad guys will generally have more or less the upper hand in a major part of the story. If this is not the case, the drama will tend to fall flat.
2. The good guys will ultimately come out of the conflict triumphant, as anything else is unsatisfactory if not unpalatable to the typical audience.
In short, the heroes beat the odds.
Writing any good story like this is largely about coming up with clever ways to fulfill both in a way that makes sense, which takes quite some imagination on the part of the author and is frankly rather difficult. On the other hand, fulfilling either one by itself is easy, if the other can be ignored. The good guys being clearly overmatched and then lose would fulfill 1 but not 2. The good guys being clearly undermatched and then win would fulfill 2 but not 1.
It is the weaker side winning that is harder to explain, for obvious reasons. The stronger side winning typically requires little or no explanation, but lacks drama.
Anyway, I would typically say that both of these tropes generally come down to the author attempting to fulfill both 1 and 2, but failing to come up with satisfactory explanations for how the two can both be true. This could be due to lack of imagination, or that they have fulfilled 1 a just bit too much.
Finally, I wasn't sure whether this thread belonged here or in the SFF lounge, so if some moderator feels it belongs elsewhere, I won't mind at all if it is moved.