A place for horse related questions

[Kylara]

I have been reading yet another novel that seems to think slender pretty horses can miraculously stampede across rough ground for days on end with no break. This annoys me.

Mainly because I do a lot with horses, own horses, ride horses, train horses, and am looking around at breeds at the moment for buying a foal and bringing it on (plus foals are cute), even though I probably won't get around to that for a while or so...

So, thought I after slamming the book shut, I will create a thread in the GWD for people to ask for clarification on any horsey things they are putting in their writing. Rather than writing a rant about all the annoying things people write about horses that are wrong...from tack, to mounting/dismounting, grooming, shoeing, clipping, riding, jumping, attitudes and behaviour...treat this thread like a drop in horse clinic...

Anyway, feel free to ask me stuff, (and anyone else with horse experience feel free to jump in :wink: ) and hopefully it will be helpful.

Also I will try to provide pictures of various breeds/types mentioned, to help give better mental pictures of specific horses

 

[HareBrain]

Good idea. I think there's another thread somewhere started by Sabolich (?) which pointed out how little knowledge many fantasy writers have about equinicities (a new portmanteau for you there).

I'll start. A light carriage with two horses and a dray with one draught-horse need to get 25 miles on reasonable roads as fast as possible. With no expectation of being able to change the horses, I assumed they would walk at all times and it would take about five hours: does that seem reasonable?

 

[Kylara]

Well a "light carriage" - what sort of carriage are we talking? A proper carriage? a gig, a trap? (one of these: http://stravaigerjohn.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/appleby-horse-fair-two-034.jpg ? they are seriously speedy, there are a lot of them around me, and they race each other down the road!) Most small carriages, especially if pulled by two horses can go at a decent working trot on decent roads...various speeds of course but about 8mph...so just over 3 hours for the carriage, maybe less as you have two horses, but it depends on what sort of "carriage" you are using...

The dray cart would probably go about 3-4 mph at a walk (which you wouldn't want to go above) so anywhere between 6 and a half to 8 and a half hours really, again depending on roads. Draught horses are very steady and reliable, and a slower pace was beneficial - less damaged apples, no spilt milk. But if spooked, draught horses can get a decent speed on, faster without a cart, less with one, so pretty awesome horses all round really.

Horses can canter in harness (take a look at extreme driving amazing stuff!) but carriage horses walk and trot, canter sometimes (more likely with horse changes), depending on where you're going and for how long and on the road; drays would really only go at a walk, a trot maybe on the way home with a lighter load...

Hopefully that helped carriage driving has never been something I have been lucky enough to go into (yet, I have one retired pony that I am just itching to hitch up to a little gig!)...most times you can have a little break just by walking your horse, no need to stop (short distances), so most drives would be a mixture - trot, walk break, trot until you get there...

 

[Tecdavid]

Good thinking, Kylara. Horses show up quite often in fantasy, so I'd imagine this will prove helpful for many of us.

I don't have any horses in my own WIP, but there are creatures slightly similar to them, so I suppose I'll ask something for the sake of having a reference point:
How long can a well-bred, trained, and tended horse gallop before reaching its limit, on average?

 

[prizzley]

And Kylara undertakes another public service!

I have 2 questions, if I'm allowed more than one at a time.

1. Can horses be trained to ride through fire? I know horses generally fear fire, but I'm talking army horses that are used to battlefield conditions. I have a scene where my characters are escaping, but a forest fire blocks their path. The riders know that what's behind them is worse than fire and the horses are also terrified. Would the riders be able to direct the horses through a narrow fire-free path or would they have to dismount and lead the horses, maybe blindfolded? I don't suppose this is something you have personal experience of, so I might need a police horse trainer!

2. Is it possible to ride a pregnant mare throughout the pregnancy?

Thank you for helping.

 

[Kylara]

Ah one of my favourite issues! It all depends, mainly on breed purpose (and on the ground)...I am assuming you are using a long distance horse breed, so a Criollo or an Arabian both of which have been bred for long distance running...a mixture of all paces.

The main question though is why is it running?

Scenario one: covering ground - A fit, properly bred horse (like above) can probably easily maintain a gallop for 1 - 1 1/2 miles and will feel fatigued after 2 - 2 1/2 miles...Arabs, and lighter horses maintain speed over longer distance than heavier horses. But any horse should be able to travel for much longer at a fast trot (not working like in HB's scenario) over a much greater distance, somewhere around 15 miles with rest breaks without much strain...more distance if you're willing to have a tired horse and all that entails at the end of travel

Scenario two: courier service - If you have a PonyExpress style thing going then your horses will be trotting asnd cantering (between 8 and 15 mph) for about 15 miles then riders will be switching horses, this way you can cover ground quickly without killing your horse.

Scenario three: running away from something - So you have a horse, if you have a well conditioned horse you'll go further, if you have a lighter breed of horse you'll go further, if you have an endurance/long distance breed, you'll go further still, but still only up to 2 1/2 miles before your horse is fatigued. You can push further and keep up the pace but then your horse will founder and die and you'll be running.

So, really the only time you want to gallop is to stretch your horse out, give a bit of variety to your ride, or to flee (to be honest if they catch a pure bred Arab stallion after it gets tired, they deserve to!) horses are not machines, but they will try very hard for you (if they like you :wink: ) To cover a lot of ground, either switch horses along the way or move between walk, trot and canter...galloping only for a short change or to run away from something

 

[Sapheron]

A few from me, as I have the chance.

Firstly, how steep a slope can a horse go up? Obvioulsy, a slight incline is no issue for them, and most hills can presumably be got over. Where does the limit hit? Of course, I'm assuming that they aren't like goats (with which I have some actual experience) which are inexplicably capable of climbing sheer walls, even if they're made of glass and have been lubricated with oil (both the wall and the goat). Strangely, a very young or old goat, or one that is smelly, thin and ill looking, is more capable of climbing into silly places than a young adult in the prime of health. If anyone could happen to explain that oddity I'd be interested as well, but I'm perfectly happy to put it down to goat magic.

Secondly, how much does a horse need to eat, and how often? For travelling across desertish type conditions, you see. I'm assuming it would be far more than a person in weight, what with horses being bigger and all, but the general way of nature suggests they could also go longer without food what with humans being pathetic and all. Am I right? Close? Deluded and stupid?

Third and final in general ramblings about weights. Horses are heavy, I hear. They're big, so I tend to believe such rumours. One rumour I heard is that particularly big work horses can weigh nearly a metric ton. That seems a hell of a lot. Whether true or not though, I feel safe saying the average horse would be less than half that figure. I'll estimate at 400kg as an 'average' horse. Is that reasonable?

Following on from that, how much of an effect does the weight of the rider have on a horse? There's quite a difference between say, a petite woman or child and a mighty warrior of nordic descent such as myself who could perhaps be three times the weight. When you watch horseracing on tv its quite obvious all the riders are about three feet tall and thin as beanpoles, so obviously in that situation its enough of an advantage to rule out bigger competitors, but then its a race and even the smallest advantage is enough. Is it really that big a difference though? If someone twice the size rode would the race become a joke where they were barely starting and the others had finished, or would they be a few seconds behind? Riding camels (odd how many animals I've spent time with without ever going near a horse...), I've noted that the only difference the rider makes (weight wise) is how much the camel comlains and or bites your legs once you sit on it. Once they start moving its hard to tell any difference, even at relatively high speeds or over longer timeframes. Seeing as camels are not that different to horses... sort of... ish... I guess a horse would act similarly, and so would conclude the rider doesn't weigh enough in comparison to the animal to make a difference in anything less than high performance sports, like the racing. Reasonable?

And as a bonus after talking about camels: looking at them, I don't think a horse can bite you while you ride it. Am I right?

I do like camels, but the unnatural and infinite bending ability of their neck can be problematic when combined with the worst work ethic and biggest mood swings in the animal kingdom.

 

[Kylara]

Right fire: Yes you can teach horses to jump through fire. However, this requires a lot of training and trust, so you can't just jump on any old horse and get it to jump through fire for you! Also they tend to jump fire, so you'd need to pick a narrow biut of fire, or avoid the big bits...horses don't like fire, but if you have a great deal of trust with your horse, then you will be able to teach it to jump through the fire (you need to do it every so often else it will forget). Also riders tend to trust their horses, so if it is trained and still won't jump there'll be a reason why not. There's no way you'd be able to lead a horse through fire, blind-folded or not in a forest. It would be off like a shot, you just woulnd't be able to hold it long enough to get through a forest fire...that's why at all yards the fire procedure is unlock doors and leave the horses to themselves, they'll get out on their own...

Yes you can ride pregnant mares, vets actually think that riding a pregnant mare until their final month is very beneficial for the health of mother and foal. A strong, healthy, physically fit mare will give birth to strong and healthy foals. You can also start riding your mare about 2 to 3 weeks after they give birth, so you lose very little riding time

However after 4 months you can't jump and you shouldn't ask for hard work in the last 4 months. You can work in the lower three gaits (walk, trot, canter), keep a light seat and make bigger shapes as she will be less bendy, also it is best to give lots of breaks where she can relax out on a long rein...basically light work is good for everyone, the only trouble you'll have is finding a girth big enough!

 

[Kylara]

Horses can do pretty steep, the steeper the hill the slower they go, and the more you have to lean forwards over your saddle (going up) and backwards (going down). Horses can also climb stairs (yup) and swim, so all good there...they can manage pretty steep gradients...but I'll have a think about the exact incline they can manage I know they can do better than a mountain bike, the issue is going back down...

Rider weight is where breeding becomes important (and where I sometimes have issues being very small and light), a big Cob is bred for taking weight (which is why you see lots of umm larger people on them (and the heavy breeds), lighter breeds such as a TB will be far less thankful of weight, they are slender and built for speed and grace. Small pony breeds are the most intriguing, there are lighter breeds which need lighter riders, but there are also breeds which take weight. A lot of weight. Mongolian horses are between 12 and 14 hands high (classed as horses though) and are the steeds of the hordes of Ghengis Khan...they are also amazing endurance runners and can gallop up to 6 miles in the right conditions.

Weight limits speed, size of jump, stamina, and attitude, if someone too heavy is constantly on a light horse, then it will become getting bad tempered...the greatest difference is in high performance but there are lots of cases of overloaded horses, whoch can cause bad backs, temperament issues, damaged hooves and tendons...It's a bit like you carrying a bag that's too heavy for you around for long periods of time, whilst some breeds/people are good at that, others are not. Also younger horses should have lighter/smaller mounts when they are being broken, just so they develop better...

A desert you say? An Arab . You definitely need an Arab. Arabs are bred form the desert and as such need little food. Horses don't need that much food if you feed them concentrate (horse mixes of various types - you can't just feed oats, really bad) and forage. forage is the bulk of their food. Depending on workload the ration is from 100% bulk to about 80:20 (conc.:bulk) volume of food depends on size and breed of horse and workload. your main issue would be water, but some breeds are bred to be better with less water, horses still need a lot though.

Also yes, horses can bite you (if they are flexible enough!) well bite your foot, they are more likely to want treats though, or just fancy slobbering on your boot...

 

[prizzley]

That's really helpful. Thank You!

 

[Kylara]

You're more than welcome prizzley! I am more than happy to help (even if it is a selfish desire to have better horsey stuff in my books!)

Oh and Sapheron, my retired 12.1hh pony (who is a little overweight to be fair) wieghs around 350kg, horses are big, very big and very heavy, big shire types are crazy heavy and can get up to a ton yes...trust me having a 17h Golly stand on your foot is why steel toecaps were invented - ouch (and 12.1h is small...)

 

[Mouse]

Here you go, Kylara: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/533599-writing-horses-in-fantasy-how-authentic-should-you.html A kindred spirit.

I had a question for one of my horsey mates for my YA books and that was 'can ponies run as fast as horses.' Apparently they can, so I hope that was the right answer I was given! (I mean, a big pony rather than a Shetland!)

 

[Kylara]

Yup, you need the right pony though :wink: a friend of mine had an insane thing that they ended up putting into mini races, fastest thing I've ever seen under 13h...I think it just didn't like not being in front!

Just a quick note on my timings - I'm going for the quickest possible time, where you wouldn't irreparably damage your horse, and you have the best roads, fittest horse/rider, and a good horse inn/service centre :wink: at your destination...any times shorter than this and I would baulk as a rider reader, but likelihood is you'd need a couple more hours on what I have given, but still, best case scenario in fiction eh :wink:

Also, if you have someone who's never ridden before, you will get NOWHERE fast. At all. EVER. (bear in mind please!) and don't run your horses through rivers after running them across ground, they WILL go lame and you WILL have to stop...(sorry, picked up that book again!)

 

[Mouse]

The scenario was there were two ponies and three horses in the group (one was a 'heavy horse' like an old carthorse/shire type) and as they were travelling together and occasionally had to run away from stuff, the ponies basically just needed to keep up.

 

[Kylara]

Yup that sounds do-able, especially as when travelling in a group they tend to match pace even more amazing is how well foals keep up, astonishing stuff (oh on that note I'm thinking a blanket spot pure bred Appaloosa, now all I have to do is wait for the money, time and a good specimen :wink: and also a reliable, respectable stud...)

 

[allmywires]

This is a horse related q, but not sure if you can give me much more info: is it true that horses are afraid of camels? (Can't remember where I read it but I'm sure it is). Any reason why? Don't blame them tbh, camels seem terrifying even to me as a puny human.

 

[Kylara]

I don't know, they tend to be frightened of pigs though, and my last pony (now on Jersey winning SJ comps!) was afraid of bikes, motorbikes and enjoyed chasing ducks...camels are rather evil, and smelly, and horses have an excellent sense of smell, so that might be it...I'm not sure though, I wouldn't have thought they should have a particular fear of camels...I'll have a think and a research :wink:

 

[The Judge]

is it true that horses are afraid of camels? (Can't remember where I read it but I'm sure it is).

Have you read Claudius the God by Graves? He talks there of Claudius's invasion of England, in which camel cavalry is used to frighten the natives' horses. I'm too lazy to check the exact quote, but here's what wikipedia says:

The smell of the camel according to folklore alarms and disorients horses, making camels an effective anti-cavalry weapon. For this purpose Emperor Claudius is said to have brought a detachment of camel cavalry as part of his invasion force for conquering Britain.

I don't suppose the elephants he brought helped matters, either...

 

[allmywires]

Ah, thanks, Judge. The only solid knowledge I have was that I remember camel units were particularly good against cavalry on Age of Empires...

 

[Ursa major]

I'm still bemused by Sapheron's lubricated goats.