A place for horse related questions

[JimC]

The frog of the hoof is pretty resilient. It won't be damaged by gravel. Larger rock can bruise the underlying tissue.

 

[Montero]

OK, ta. Whereas I hate walking barefoot on gravel, or indeed pebbles.

 

[Overread]

OK, ta. Whereas I hate walking barefoot on gravel, or indeed pebbles.

Don't forget many people in developed nations have very unnaturally soft feet due to shoes and socks. If we walked barefoot everywhere our feet would be thicker skinned and more suited to rougher surfaces. Heck if we do start to develop rubbing spots and thicker skin many people change foot ware and treat the thicker skin as an abnormality to be removed.

Personally gravel is fine, its when its very thin gravel or a stone or two on an otherwise hard surface that you really get pains!

 

[Montero]

Well, I'm going to do the traditional thing and blame my parents - because they were forever telling me to put my shoes back on when I was little.

 

[Ursa major]

and my fingers are too sore to type on the phone

I've heard of it happening to people's voices...


...but this is the first time that I've heard of anyone's fingers getting horse....

 

[Montero]

Eyeroll

And on that note

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I'm going to take a leaf out of @Joshua Jones' book and add comments to your text:

So plotting out what happens after he drives in and gets out of the car - might be called on to give a hand, or whoever he wanders up to for a chat says "Running late, can you do xxxx, talk later/talk as we work"

To fill in xxxx I am thinking that a relatively unskilled person, who is observant and used to animals in the form of sheep could be asked to do the following to help out:

Groom a placid horse – either working alongside the experienced person or has already had a lesson in how to do it. Possibly, but only if the owner was sure the newcomer would be able/had some experience, as even a placid horse can be irritated by clumsy grooming.
Lead a placid horse up and down a walkway (but not a frisky one) or out to a field As above. Many injuries to handlers come from a normally docile horse doing something unexpected, especially on the way out to the field.
Muck out empty stalls and put down feed and water for horses before they are brought in. I'd say yes to water and hay, but no to feed as it's likely each horse will have a special feed (as in bucket feed -- hay is really forage and usually ad-lib unless the horses is obese or has underlying health issues).
Clean tack (but you wouldn't need a lot of tack at an animal hospital) Maybe tidy up tack, e.g. put head collars away when they've been dropped in a heap by someone in a hurry, or coil up lunge lines and hang them up?

Questions on detail:

Food
In terms of putting out feed, hay could be put out at any time. But, any feed that is more desirable (like sheep nuts for sheep) that could attract birds or rodents – would you wait on that until just before the horse was brought in? It's a good idea to wait until the horses are in to give them food, otherwise you create a habit of horses barging ahead because they associate their stable with instant yummy stuff. You could have the buckets all tacked, pre-prepared, either inside a feed bin or with lids on them outside stables. When we used to do livery for other people, we fed in the mornings and the owners would prepare feeds the night before and leave each one in a covered bucket (or hanging on a peg out of reach of rodents) outside each stable. The horses knew exactly what order they were fed in, but that didn't stop them trying to break down the stables doors when I was a little bit too slow on a cold winter morning!

Mood
If someone is in a bad mood, I'm assuming a horse would notice (sheep certainly do). Could you have an elderly, placid horse that wouldn't care if the person grooming it was in a bad mood, so long as they got their daily dose of brushing? Horses do pick up on moods in their humans, but there's no predicting how it will affect any individual horse. My experience is that the more stressed you are, or the more you need to be finished quickly, the higher chance of a horse doing something really stupid or dangerous to itself or someone else. One of ours regularly tried to commit horse suicide whenever my daughter was getting ready to compete, even he wasn't the horse being prepared. His favourite trick was getting cast in his stable (imagine a sheep stuck on its back, but horse-sized, and jammed against a stable wall with thrashing hooves...)

Questions on grooming – or rather a sanity check on the things I vaguely remember plus a bit I've looked up – I remember doing it as having a brush in one hand and a curry comb in the other, you brush in the direction that the hair lies and use the comb to clean out the brush. However looking online here Horse Grooming - Step By Step Guide | Horsemart
It is using the curry comb as the first stage on the horse to loosen everything, and doesn't mention cleaning the brush off on anything. And it is not brushing in the direction the hair lies until the final stage.
While doing the brushing, dust – skin cells, dried sweat and dried mud – comes off together with loose hairs. It all gets clogged on the brush and every so often you clean the brush off (I thought you used the curry comb for that but seem to have that wrong). You start at the top of the side of the horse, working backwards towards the tail, and then the next “stripe” along the side and then the next lower stripe. You get covered in fine dust/grime – as in your face, hands and clothes will have a fine coating of what you are brushing off and it may get in your nose. There is a particular smell to horses that will persist on you
I would agree with what you were taught, on the whole. There are two types of curry combs: the metal ones are used for cleaning other brushes and should never, ever be used on a horse; the plastic type can be used to shift particularly reluctant dried mud/sh*t before brushing with a softer brush. Some horses with sensitive skin can't even bear a plastic curry comb on them.
The way I do it is I start at the head with a soft brush and brush in the direction of hair growth. Most horses are quite itchy and many enjoy this bit, but think they can do it better than you if they rub their heads up and down against the brush. Then I start on one side and go down the neck, front of chest, front leg (outside), opposite front let (inside of leg), then along back and chest and under the tummy (some horses are a bit ticklish here, so watch out for those back feet trying to kick you, in case, as you said, you're actually a fly), working front to back. There's a bit where the hairs grow in funny directions on the side, just in front of the back leg. I usually follow hair direction there with the tip of the brush. Then top of bum, hind leg as for front legs, being careful to keep a hand on the back of the horse so you can move with it if it moves suddenly. Even feeling the muscles tense can be enough warning that you're about to get your foot squashed. If it's a mare, your feet are probably being targeted; if it's a gelding, it will almost certainly be accidental, but he'll stand there wondering why you're yelling, pummelling him with your fists and doing a one-legged war dance. I speak from experience. If it's a stallion, you should be especially wary of its feet, since they may well approach you at head-height.

If the horse keeps twitching a bit of its skin like a fly landed, that is a sensitive spot and best not brushed. Yes, but usually a bit of reassurance and care will overcome this. If not, check for an injury or an infected fly-bite.
The horse may whisk its tail round and if you are near the rear end you can be swatted by it. Yes, and they also fart in your face. I'm not completely convinced this is accidental, since they usually save it for when I'm plaiting their tails for a competition and can't escape the fumes. Which would knock out an elephant.
You will see motes of dust, glittering in the sunlight as you brush. I'm allergic to horses, so usually everything is a blur of tears and sneezing, but you're probably right!
With less placid horses it's a good idea to tie the halter short so they can't turn and bite you and lengthen it when you are done grooming (the article doesn't mention length of rope, just being able to release it quickly). If it's a less placid horse, the teeth are only a small part of your problem, but generally yes. We use a bit of thin, easily-broken string tied to a metal tie-ring in the wall, then we tie the horse to the string (never the metal ring) with a quick release knot. This means that if the horse panics, or slips on the concrete and falls (usually because it's playing silly buggers and deserves it, but still), the twine will snap and release the horse instead of the neck snapping when half a tonne+ falls over, hanging by said neck. Also, a horse can panic if it pulls back and meets an immovable force (the ring in the wall), and its response is to throw its full body weight into trying to escape this unseen enemy. They can injure themselves severely in this case. No one ever said horses were bright.
Some horses may try slamming you against the side wall of the stable by swinging their body. Again, this is pretty rare. If it's a young horse that hasn't learned how to behave, or a competition horse buzzing with high energy food and nowhere to expend its excess energy, this can happen. I don't think they often do it on purpose, but I've been a victim of it, and my eyes popped a bit before I was able to poke it in the ribs and get it to move.
When you get the horse to lift its foot so you can check the frog, the horse may decide to lean on you. Oh yes. They'll definitely try this one on if they think they can get away with it. There's a trick to stopping them. We had a foster donkey here for a while, and he used to sit down on the farrier until we fed him ginger nut biscuits. He'd have done anything for ginger nuts (apparently this goes for most donkeys). Our farrier told us he used to attend a donkey sanctuary, and they'd have to bring three of four strong lads along because one of the donkeys had discovered it could avoid a foot-trim by lying down. The farrier would lift the first foot. The donkey dropped like a stone. the farrier yelled, "get him, lads," or words to that effect and the big lads leapt on the donkey, rolled him on his back and held on to a foot each. the farrier then calmly trimmed each foot in turn upside-down. My farrier swears this is a true story, but you know what farriers are like...

Is the above correct?

Further question – if two of you are grooming a horse, one either side say, would it be OK for the two people to be chatting or would that upset some horses? Chatting is good. The hum of voices chatting often settles horses. If they were arguing, however, that could unsettle the horse.

Questions on leading horses up and down for exercise – would that be done in a halter, or a bridle and bit? If the horse tosses its head high, can that pull a muscle in your arm? Most horses, a head collar (halter) and lead rope. Some stronger horses (aka more lively), a bridle. If you're leading a horse you don't know well that looks lively, you'd probably put a bridle on, as long as you knew it had been broken to bridle (trained to wear and respond to a bridle with a bit in its mouth). If it's a stallion, you'd often use a special bit called a chiffney (see link) for extra control. And yes, a horse tossing its head high can wrench your shoulder (rubs own shoulder ruefully).
If you are leading a horse out from a shadowed barn to bright sunlight, could that cause the horse to jump back, rear, or in some other way protest the sudden bright light? Only if they had an eye problem that caused the light to hurt their eyes, or if the barn was unusually dark, which wouldn't be a healthy environment for horses anyway. Horses are flight animals, so anything that has changed in their familiar environment can be seen as a threat (aka excuse to play silly buggers). For example, someone has parked the tractor in a different place, or a new horse box parked where no horse box has any right to be (in the horse's mind).
If yes, what is the answer – waiting in the doorway for the horse's eyes to adjust? Sometimes our horses like to stop just inside the barn with their heads sticking out so they can check for enemies lurking outside, but I don't think that's to do with light because our barn is very bright inside, too. usually, they just follow happily, in the hope there might be something yummy at the end of the journey.

 

[Overread]

Also don't forget each horse has its own personalty and quirks. Reading Kerry's post reminded me of one situation where there was a very placid and easy going horse who'd always toss his head up very high when approaching a stall. Some might interpret that as an attempt to pull back/away and not go in; however his main reason was to get a very good look at the doorway as the horse was tall and had already had the experience of blindly walking head first into the doorframe. So it became habit for him pause to toss his head for a good look first before going in.
Again behaviour that if done by another horse might be seen as refusal to enter and might be something a trainer would work with to correct.

So there's often a need to appreciate that the text-book standard behaviours and patterns are just that. Textbook approaches that work in the general sense for most, but which can be interpreted differently depending on individual animals and their experiences and their trainers interpretations of those behaviours.


Another interesting thing is the difference between told and do when it comes to horses. Eg a new person is told not to do many things, like do not walk behind** or duck under the head. Behaviours that you'll often see a more experienced person doing all the time to horses that they work with. So if you base your characters off textbooks and intro lessons you have to consider that how an experienced person behaves will differ. They will do dangerous and stupid things for beginners. They will do things that you would not encourage a person to do, but which get done anyway.

The reasoning for it is many. It could be overconfidence; reduced lack of alertness/caution; trust in the horse; a greater familiarity with horse body language; accepted risk; invulnerability of youth/determination of the aged*

There are also other things to watch out for, eg many a beginner knows that "ears back is bad" except its not. An experienced person knows that ears right very hard back is bad, but that ears all the way forward can also be bad in the right situation. Indeed whilst ears might be something a beginner would focus on as a basic horse mood indicator; a more experienced person would draw conclusions not just from the situation and more areas of the horse, but also from more variations of angle of the ears.


So keep in mind that the experienced might not be following the textbook.


*far as I can tell they are the same thing

** one trainer I did some work with said at least if you're going to walk behind keep close rather than far away. Her reasoning was that too many will go behind a horse and stray wide to "keep away" from the danger of the hind legs, but what they actually end up doing is putting themselves in a position where the legs have all the room in the world to rise, gain speed and strike; whilst if you're closer the legs don't have quite the same amount of room. Which, of course, is not to say that you're in any way "safe".
Of course if you're closer you can also maintain contact with the horse from the side through to the back, in theory telling the horse where you are when you move into their blind spot.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

What @Overread said. Also, if they're passing close behind, you'll notice horsey folks often keep on hand on top of the horse's rump, having placed it gently and run it backwards as if it was a grooming brush, and they often keep talking to the horse as they move around it. This helps the horse know where they are and reassures the horse.

I often whistle or hum when working around horses, and my daughter sings when riding young horses especially. This has several functions: it helps her relax herself, it relaxes the horse, and when training a young horse to change pace, she subconsciously sings something with the same beat as the pace she's asking for. A horse walks in 4-time: clip-clop, click clop is all four feet hitting the ground separately to make up one cycle. Trot is 2-time: a (louder) clip-clop making up one cycle as diagonal feet hit the ground at the same time (i.e. left hind and right fore simultaneously then right hind and left fore simultaneously). Canter is three-time, as two of the horse's feet hit the ground at the same time but the other two hit separately, a sort of clipetty-clop, except not quite because that has an extra syllable!

If she's teaching a horse to canter, she might hum a 3/4 time song. She often sings Irish traditional songs as they cover most choices of beats! It's interesting to watch how the horse adapts its footfall in time to the music, and the way they flick an ear back to listen. I have no idea if the horse is responding directly to the beat or to some unconscious signals Katrina is sending due to her own immersion in the music, but it certainly works! A young horse has to re-learn its balance through all the paces with a heavy weight on its back that alters its centre of gravity, and that can be quite a challenge for them sometimes.

 

[Overread]

I have no idea if the horse is responding directly to the beat or to some unconscious signals Katrina is sending due to her own immersion in the music, but it certainly works!

A good few years back there was a super-horse that could do maths.
It could add up numbers and such, stamping on its hoof to give the number! However when they tested it they found that horse didn't have a clue, it was instead reading its handlers reaction and body language. Basically when the horse stamped its leg to "count" out the answer, it would pick up on the handlers reaction as the leg stamped out and stopped at the correct answer.

However if the handler had no idea what the answer was to the question, then couldn't give the signals, the horse got the answer wrong.

This was all really subtle body language from the handler rather than a deliberate trained trick. It's an interesting show of how we have to be careful when interpreting animal actions and how they perceive the world around them.

 

[Montero]

Thank you, all.
Regarding timed farting - I could believe that they are doing it on purpose, purely because they often stand nose to tail to whisk each other with their tails, so they must know what it smells like. If you can control to some extent when you pee and poop, then by extension you could control farting......

 

[Joshua Jones]

Busy weekend and there was great posts in my absence! I'll add one thing to the discussion of walking behind/kicking. The purpose of the instruction to not walk behind a horse is honestly more because of the inexperience/moron potential of someone who has never been around horses, as well as the horse's unfamiliarity with that person. The two leg backward kick is a defensive move if they feel immanent threat behind them or a means to teach rowdy colts respect (a yearling tried to mount the head mare and that... didn't end well for him...). That said, horses do sometimes spook for reasons beyond human comprehension (my term for this is malevolent clouds), which is why the reassurance Kerry spoke of is so important, and why experienced horse people, though they may walk behind a horse, don't tend to linger there. One of the things we also did was put tape down on the ground when we had kids visiting, which would illustrate the kick range of a horse, and were strictly instructed not to enter the tape box. Again, it's less that we thought the horses would maliciously cave in a kid's skull and more that we didn't want the kids to swat them on the hindquarters, pull their tail, make a loud noise or do something else mythically stupid behind one and find themselves careering over the countryside.

And yes, I could be convinced relatively easily that rogue nations use horse farts for interrogations... and I agree with the sentiment they are timed and aimed. The probabilities for all the times I've been cropdusted by these creatures strains credulity should it not be intentional...

 

[Montero]

Further question - I mentioned race horses and had responses about there being two/three paces on a racehorse.

When you hear the word "racehorse" - does that solely mean flat racing to you?
Or can "race horse" include hurdlers and jump racing/steeple chasing?
And I am thinking that jumpers have a longer working life, and there is more investment in training them to jump - or do I have that wrong?

 

[Joshua Jones]

Further question - I mentioned race horses and had responses about there being two/three paces on a racehorse.

When you hear the word "racehorse" - does that solely mean flat racing to you?
Or can "race horse" include hurdlers and jump racing/steeple chasing?
And I am thinking that jumpers have a longer working life, and there is more investment in training them to jump - or do I have that wrong?

I usually think just flat racing. The hunter/jumper type are usually considered part of event training, along with dressage and cross country.

And I honestly am not sure about the working career of a jumper without Googling... we never raised them. I would guess it's somewhere between a race horse and a dressage horse, because would think jumping would start wearing at the joints faster than dressage, but I honestly don't know for sure.

 

[Montero]

OK, reading Dick Francis novels which are mostly set in the UK (former champion jump jockey authoring horse racing based thrillers) the jumpers doing races and three day eventers/show jumpers seem to be in totally different worlds.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Racehorses are not just flat racers. Hurdlers and steeplechasers and point-to-pointers are all racehorses that jump. Two of ours are retired jumpers.
As a rule, flat racers start younger (2-3yrs) and finish younger. Jumpers start a bit later, when their joints are more mature, and can go on for years. They’re also bigger on average than flat racers.
This is a totally different discipline to eventing.

 

[Montero]

Ta.
OK it was mentioned earlier in this thread that racehorses have three paces and have to be trained into proper walk, trot, canter, gallop - does this apply to jumpers too? Just curiosity really, cos thinking you'd need a bigger variety of paces for timing the jumps, as opposed to fast and very fast.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I think the three paces is a generalisation. I know a racehorse trainer who teaches his horses to move correctly from day one, rather than just run flat out, and he’s very successful. The fact that his wife is an equine physio might have something to do with it! She is all about preventing injury by building up the right muscles in a young horse. He trains mostly jumpers, so yes, that probably also influences his methods.

The thing about thoroughbreds (I.e. racehorses) is that they have been bred for athleticism, speed and stamina. Different types of racing require different proportions of these attributes, but pretty much any good thoroughbred is incredible to ride. Comparing them to cars, cobs are the family estate car, ponies are the nippy little town car, most horses are some variety of sports hatchback through to roomy saloon with all mod cons. The thoroughbred is the Bugatti Veyron of the car world. Someone who’s only driven the family estate or even a sporty hatch will terrify themselves if they try to drive the Bugatti in the same way. The power under the bonnet is like nothing else, and when they bunch themselves up to run, imagine the formula one cars on the starting grid.

In case you haven’t noticed, I have a bit of a soft spot for thoroughbreds! They get such a bad rap, but they’re the best breed in the world in the right hands.

 

[Montero]

I'm fascinated on all your thoroughbred info, thank you.

Out of curiosity, where do heavy horses like Shire come in your car scale? I know they are not often used as riding horses, but I did once see one galloping and that was a lot of horse shifting.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

They’d be the heavy haulage wagons that have car drivers cursing on the single carriageway roads through Scotland to the ferries.

Shires and Clydesdales can gallop and even jump, but their very upright confirmation (the way their joints line up in the legs, sort-of) is designed for pulling, and leaves them vulnerable to joint disease from repeated impact of the hooves with the ground. Thoroughbreds and other athletic breeds, have springier joints in their limbs which, absorb the impact and helps them run and jump better — but they couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding, never mind haul a dray. Imagine a Sumo wrestler trying to hurdle, vs a sprinter trying to do the shot-put.