Jon Snow Theory revised -- ADWD Spoilers

garion77

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I was thinking about the whole Jon murder scheme at the end... I am coming to the conclusion that Mel glamored that guy in the cell or one of his enemies.

Why I say this is because Rattle snake pretended to be Mance up until he was touched by the flames. Then he started denying being Mance.

First, its no way in the world Rattle snake would have stood in for Mance willingly... So he must have thought he was Mance up until the flames touched him and knocked him out of his trance. Because I think Stannis questions him a few times before he burned him alive.

So I think why GRRM pointed out that Jon was surprised when the guy slash his neck is the same reason Rattle snake was surprised when the flames touched him... They thought they were the person they were imitating...

I think pain bring them out of their trance...

And I think the NW who did the murder knew it wasn't Jon and that's why the first guy apologized and the others didn't look happy with doing the killing...
 
Re: Jon Snow Theory revised

I haven't gotten to ADWD on my re-read yet, but I seem to recall that RattleMance was screaming and thrashing that they had the wrong guy, he wasn't the king, etc etc. And most people thought Mance was just being cowardly and denying that he was a king or that he'd called himself a king in order to spare being burned.
 
Why I say this is because Rattle snake pretended to be Mance up until he was touched by the flames. Then he started denying being Mance.
Actually, no.

The first words of Rattleshirt-as-Mance we hear are in this paragraph:
The wildling king recoiled from the sight. "No," he cried. mercy. This is not right. I'm not the king, they—"
The sight he's recoiling from is that of the cage hanging 'above a deep pit filled with logs, leaves and kindling.'

The next paragraph begins:
Ser Godry gave a pull on the rope. The King-Beyond-the-Wall had no choice but to stumble after him, the rope choking off his words.
Later, Rattleshirt pulls at the rope and begins denying who he is. The Horn of Joramun is in flames by this time, but the kindling in the pit is still not aflame, not until a few paragraphs later, when the Horn is thrown into the pit.
 
Hey folks, I am new to this forum and I am a fan of George RR Martin. Having almost complete finished reading A Dance with Dragons, I have to say that if George actually killed off Jon Snow, I would not be pleased. Jon has got to be my favorite character of all (save for his father who was beheaded). ..

George described Jon's Death in the book. This to me was just... wrong. If he awakens as anything BUt who and what he was, he will no longer BE Jon Snow....
 
Welcome to the forum :)

My general response is that I think Needle's grand theory (which I might have had a small part in is the best I've seen so far, as it addresses all issues with Jon being a continuing character
 
Hey folks, I am new to this forum and I am a fan of George RR Martin. Having almost complete finished reading A Dance with Dragons, I have to say that if George actually killed off Jon Snow, I would not be pleased. Jon has got to be my favorite character of all (save for his father who was beheaded). ..

George described Jon's Death in the book. This to me was just... wrong. If he awakens as anything BUt who and what he was, he will no longer BE Jon Snow....

You shouldn't have read this thread until you finished ADWD... Their are spoilers on this forum...

Finish the book and then read the forums...
 
You shouldn't have read this thread until you finished ADWD... Their are spoilers on this forum...

Finish the book and then read the forums...


Amen to that. I didn't go near a TV or look at any online news sites, forums, etc until I was done with the last page.
 
I was thinking about the whole Jon murder scheme at the end... I am coming to the conclusion that Mel glamored that guy in the cell or one of his enemies.

Why I say this is because Rattle snake pretended to be Mance up until he was touched by the flames. Then he started denying being Mance.

First, its no way in the world Rattle snake would have stood in for Mance willingly... So he must have thought he was Mance up until the flames touched him and knocked him out of his trance. Because I think Stannis questions him a few times before he burned him alive.

So I think why GRRM pointed out that Jon was surprised when the guy slash his neck is the same reason Rattle snake was surprised when the flames touched him... They thought they were the person they were imitating...

I think pain bring them out of their trance...

And I think the NW who did the murder knew it wasn't Jon and that's why the first guy apologized and the others didn't look happy with doing the killing...

To what end? Why?

I think it was Jon, and he was going to ride off and break his oath. They could not let him do that. If as leader he was allowed to go on his way, what would keep the killers, rapist and thugs from cutting out?
 
Before I begin let me put up a.... SPOILER ALERT regarding the main theory of Jon's parentage... Oh, and I'm going to discuss other POV characters who have died or nearly died.

garion, you posted spoiler in the title. Good job. Readers need to beware. We all read at our own risk. BUT I cringed when I read timothy's post. I bet tim thought it was about little spoilers (like how many men Tormund brought with him) or good spoilers (like Jon got a letter from Arya) or spooky spoilers (like Craster had become a wight). I'm sure tim never thought of Mel saying, "Beware the Ides of marching off to war" nor of Jon shouting, "Et tu, Bowen?"

Eversummer, the initials are different... JC and JS. Yet the phonetics are the same... J and S.

The only way to avoid this is to post SPOILER ALERT: Discussion of the death of a Major POV character in ADWD... and that's even worse!

tim, I feel for you. I do. My first five minutes of reading up on further information regarding ASOIAF introduced me to R+L=J. I'd read through ASOS and not even considered that Ned was not Jon's father. I know that's not even in the same realm of shock with what you read here, but it taught me to watch out what I was reading.

To actually comment regarding the substance of the original post... I think that Jon was surprised when he was attacked because it was the first time that Bowen Marsh showed any resolve to either be proactive or to fight.

I believe that the problem that readers have with the attack upon Jon is that it is the only time where the life of a major hero or favorite villain is in doubt at the end of a book. For example, Eddard, Robb, Bran, Drogo, Catelyn, Jaime, Tyrion, Joffrey, and Jon have all been in dire straits, but all of their situations were resolved before the end of the book in which each of their death/near death happened.

I'll say that Jaime's life, at the end of ADWD, is not in danger. He's not just going to disappear. We'll see him again. He has to confront Connington, Barristan, and Cersei... and probably Tyrion as well.

I contend that neither Theon, Davos, Loras, Jorah, nor Brienne are major heroes nor favorite villains. How much did Theon's disappearance near the end of ACOK bother you? Brienne's lynching? Davos' watery plight? I was interested to know, but I don't think I lost sleep over them.

Okay.... I might have lost sleep wondering where Jorah was during AFFC. I believe that more people were concerned with Arya's blindness than Brienne's and Loras' imminent deaths at the end of AFFC.

Now, what if ASOS ended with Joffrey clutching at his throat? I'd have been a tizzy for five years wanting to know if that little jerk finally got his.

What if ACOK ended with Tyrion being cut open by Mandon Moore? That would have been a torturous two months I had to wait for ASOS.

GRRM loves mini-cliffhangers for almost every chapter, but he has not yet left us a book ending cliffhanger of this magnitude. Jon Snow.

The other problem readers have is that Jon's death upsets everything we thought we knew about ASOIAF.

Isn't Jon supposed to be the personification of Ice and Fire? Aren't the theories of Jon's parentage the most discussed threads in fantasy lit for the last dozen years?

Many of you know that I'm not a fan of Jon (I love the story that his POV tells.), but I figured he's one of the two characters (three, if you think they'll be riding dragons) who will make it to the final showdown with The Other. I figured Jon was safe until ADOS (Is that still the working title of Book Seven?).

If Jon is dead, then who takes his place? Sam? Arya? Sansa? Stannis? Podrick? Ned Dayne? Darkstar? Loras? None of those are going to satisfy me.

Jon has to live. Dying does not make sense.

Ursa, If Jon cannot warg into his wolf at his moment of death, does that mean he's giving up the Ghost?
 
I'm not sure if i said it before,
cause it has been a while since i've been on this board.

But to me Jon still lives cause Ghost still lives.
All the Starks (of the main family --> Ned and his children) that died, had their wolf killed.

Mother wolf was found dead = Ned died.
Grey Wind got killed = Robb got killed.

So what about Sansa?
Well, imo Sansa dies, albeit symbolically.
Sansa is no longer tied to the north.
And ever since Lady died, she has only ever become more southron.

This rings even more true when you look at Arya situation.
She loses her wolf, and thus her wandering days begin
BUT the connection remains.
Even now that she is training under the faceless men, deep down
Arya Stark is stil there.
GRRM has made this clear.
 
Ursa, If Jon cannot warg into his wolf at his moment of death, does that mean he's giving up the Ghost?
:D

Could be, possibly because he's not keen on entering such a dire situation**. :rolleyes:




** - Possible a case of "out of the frying pan into the dire". :rolleyes:
 
I'm for either Needle's (fairly complex) theory of using the animated body from the ice cell that has been glamored, or for the far more simple theory that Jon just... doesn't die of the wounds that he receives.

Anyway, kicking a dead horse here. Martin has to get his next one pumped out.
 

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