Self-editing, and knowing when to stop

[MistingWolf]

This is just a general question that popped into my head just now, and I must ask it.

But first:

I was thinking while browsing this here general forum about a friend in my writer's group. It was a typical day, and this fine gentleman was trying his hand at a fantasy novel (his specialty is suspense/mystery/horror). While he was handing out the first chapter, he mentioned that he had been over it "about thirty times", and I haven't known him to exaggerate. So, we opened up this short chapter and read through it.

I didn't have the heart, or the guts, to tell him that it felt very stiff (compared to his usual writings). In some places, even in one very (supposedly) emotional spot where the protagonist watches as his father is magically blown up by an evil warlock, it felt like trying to give Plank a personality.

So, my question:

How do you know when you've read over and edited your own manuscript too many times? Should there be a limit?

 

[thaddeus6th]

There should be a limit, otherwise it just won't stop.

The problem is that there are easy technical things that should be (as far as possible) eliminated, like typos, and then there are vague and fuzzy things like pacing, dialogue and so on that could theoretically be tightened up forever.

I'm not sure it's possible to say X number of drafts is right. Bane of Souls had five or six, I think, and a lot of that was correcting continuity, jiggling the order of scenes and writing a few new ones to ease the flow and add character development or light relief.

As for how I 'knew' it was done... I honestly can't remember. I'd gotten rid of all the errors I could and it felt like it was ready. I know that's not very helpful.

 

[Gabe.]

I rewrite until it sounds good. If it starts sounding bad, then i go back to previous drafts (which I always save periodically). Sometimes it might take somebody else, like a writing group, to tell you that it has gone a bit too far. That's the beauty of an outside opinion.

 

[Abernovo]

I've over-edited in the past. Thank goodness for keeping earlier versions!

I don't think there's a specific number of edits, not least because everybody's editing style is different, just as their writing styles are. Perhaps this is where another pair of eyes comes in useful. Maybe, after editing a couple or three times, it's time to start asking for feedback from beta readers, if they're available.

Sometimes they might stop the over-critical self from 'fixing' something that already works.

EDIT: Darn, Gabe got in before me, with pretty much the exact same thoughts.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Pretty much the same as the others. I rewrite until it stops getting better. Be honest with your friend in the writer's group. He is tackling a new genre and each one comes with its issues and can take time to find the right voice for.

 

[mygoditsraining]

"When it feels right" is pretty much the answer here. It depends entirely on the person writing, and I'm certain that it's not a problem that magically evaporates after the first novel - I follow a lot of authors on Twitter and the common thread that unites them is angst over editing.

The fact that your friend had so many do-overs at it maybe should have been his first hint. Something inside him knew that it wasn't working, and he kept going back, and back, and back - thankfully he showed it to someone else who could point to the problem for him.

Slightly OT, but perhaps not:

I've been pretty lucky with my current WIP. I made an early beta contact to swap MS's with. She has a fantastic sense of pace and character, so I wasn't too fussed about getting it picture perfect - I just wanted to know if it had legs as a whole story. I hammered the dents out of draft zero in a first pass and she read the whole thing, then sent me back a two page document that noted the strengths but really zeroed in on the overall weaknesses.

Having friends to bounce your writing off is great. Of all the things that have improved my writing in the last year, I'd say good, critical feedback has been one of the biggest.

 

[Hex]

When it gets to the stage the editing isn't working, I move on to something else and come back to it later. There's probably something I don't know yet, or some way of looking at it I haven't thought through, that'll make it much better when I've had a rest.

I don't really believe I can 'over-edit' over a whole project, but I have certainly over-edited when I'm going over the same section again and again trying to get it to correspond to what's in my head. For me, it takes distance to see where the flow breaks down and what to do about it.

Gabe and Abernovo also make an excellent point -- sometimes it can really help to go back to an earlier version and work from that.

I think your friend needs to know that the writing isn't up to his usual standard, but perhaps he also just needs to give it some space and come back to it when he can see what he's written?

 

[Ursa major]

I rewrite until it sounds good. If it starts sounding bad, then i go back to previous drafts (which I always save periodically).

Exactly: read the passage out aloud, and from a printout.

While this may lead to yet further edits (it often does for me ), this is the only way by which one can - without the help of someone else, that is - detect where one's prose is lifeless, stilted or disjointed**. And by reading away from the keyboard, there's less temptation to change the words as one goes along.



** - Assuming that these aren't the effects being sought, of course.

 

[Gabe.]

Exactly: read the passage out aloud, and from a printout.

While this may lead to yet further edits (it often does for me ), this is the only way by which one can - without the help of someone else, that is - detect where one's prose is lifeless, stilted or disjointed**. And by reading away from the keyboard, there's less temptation to change the words as one goes along.

Yes, I can't stress enough how important it is to have other people not just read your work, but hear it. Also, as much as it might be tempting, try to have somebody else read your work out to you that hasn't seen it before (i.e. read it cold.) That way, they won't be able to add extra inflection or interpretation or anything, and it will make it more obvious to you where a reader is tripping over things, or where your prose starts to be stale.

 

[Bowler1]

Having an outside eye going over what I'm doing helps keep me focused as it's all too easy to over work a section of writing. I also find that I can only do a few days of editing before I return a writing phase, it helps keep me motivated I guess. But I'd still go over a section of writing a number of times and even return to the section weeks later again and again. Fussing over writing is not a bad thing. Just remember to keep it focused on the reader as best you can.

 

[C. A. Mitchell]

I edit until I can silence the voice in my head that says: 'Meh, it'll do.'

When I take out a comma, then on the next read-through replace said comma, I know I'm over-editing!

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Self-editing is by far the most useful thing an author can know.

 

[Sapheron]

I permit myself a single rewrite of any given chapter, opening, bunch of paragraphs etc, until I have completed the story as a whole. If it's a whole novel that's just tough. Otherwise I'd end up with a thousand almost identicle copies of chapter 1 and chapter 2 would never be put to paper (or hard drive). As having a single perfect chapter does not a novel make, I made my rule.

EDIT: Sometimes I follow it.

 

[Bowler1]

When I take out a comma, then on the next read-through replace said comma, I know I'm over-editing!

Phew...
Not just me then.

 

[Hex]

When I take out a comma, then on the next read-through replace said comma, I know I'm over-editing!

Hee. Nicely put.

I stop working on that bit and plan to come back to it later -- I know I will because I write with multiple edit stages.

So, thinking about this, I think there are two things: first, whether you can work on a paragraph or whatever until you've stopped doing anything useful to it; second, whether you can edit to the stage when things cannot be made better.

I certainly do the first and I've never managed the second. With time and distance, I can always find problems with what I've written. I think that's why it's vital for me to put writing away and come back to it after a gap of a month or twelve. Then I can see (more of) the bits where things aren't working.

I find the challenges really push me -- I don't have ages to edit in.

 

[Ursa major]

Yes: everyone knows that one shouldn't be splicing commas into one's text.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

For the first time I did a read through of the wip and didn't change anything. Not that it can't be made better - never that! - but for now I'm too close to see the clunky bits. Anyway im taking it as a sign to leave well alone for now.

 

[Ursa major]

Well done.

However, as you've proved by finding an unwanted word, a, in the second paragraph of my WiP (thanks, Springs! ), seeing no errors doesn't mean that there aren't any.


(And I had read the darped thing out aloud. )