2013 to bring final (?) unpublished Tolkien work

[Extollager]

http://www.harpercollins.co.uk/Title...-9780007489947

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Wow. I had no idea such a work existed. Thanks for the link.


(I have, however, binned your duplicate thread in General Books, as it is against out policy to have the same discussion running in more than one sub-forum at once.)

 

[j d worthington]

Nor I; and ditto....

 

[The Ace]

Until Christopher Tolkein runs out of beer money anyway.

 

[Extollager]

(I have, however, binned your duplicate thread in General Books, as it is against out policy to have the same discussion running in more than one sub-forum at once.)

I'm not a policy-maker, of course. I doubled-up because my sense is that the frequent contributors to the General Books threads don't overlap that much with the Tolkien forum, which seems to be more fannish while the GB folk are more sercon.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

the Tolkien forum, which seems to be more fannish while the GB folk are more sercon.

I'd disagree with that.

But the most important thing is that there is an overlap, particularly among regular contributors to the forums, and to have two conversations on the same subject going at once quickly leads to confusion.

On another note, I see that he wrote this after his translation of "Gawain." I wonder to what extent (if any) the poetry in "Arthur" is inspired by the Gawain poet.

 

[River Boy]

I knew it existed as Humphrey Carpenter mentioned it in one of his books, but - just going from memory - I thought he wrote that it had been abandoned after a few pages, so was very surprised by the announcement. (I've a real interest in Arthur so think I would have remembered any mention of it being near complete.)

I suppose Christopher Tolkien might still have come across a lost manuscript - he was finding bits all the time during the penning of his Histories, and if Tolkien was unsatisfied or unsure of a work it wasn't beyond him to put it in a box somewhere and never seek it out again.

Keep meaning to get round to reading Charles Williams' 'Taliesin' poems, would be interesting to compare the two considering the Inklings might have regularly discussed and debated King Arthur - even though Tolkien didn't think much of Williams' work.

 

[Extollager]

Keep meaning to get round to reading Charles Williams' 'Taliesin' poems, would be interesting to compare the two considering the Inklings might have regularly discussed and debated King Arthur - even though Tolkien didn't think much of Williams' work.

I read the two main books of Taliessin poems over 35 years ago -- ! C. S. Lewis's commentary "Williams and the Arthuriad," in Arthurian Torso, was indispensable. (I think I have the titles right. I have a nifty one-volume edition published by dear old Eerdmans -- Williams's poems; his unfinished book The Figure of Arthur; and Lewis's explication.)

Since then some studies of the poems have appeared, but I haven't kept up with them. I think one study, by Roma King, may be particularly well regarded.

 

[River Boy]

I read the two main books of Taliessin poems over 35 years ago -- ! C. S. Lewis's commentary "Williams and the Arthuriad," in Arthurian Torso, was indispensable. (I think I have the titles right. I have a nifty one-volume edition published by dear old Eerdmans -- Williams's poems; his unfinished book The Figure of Arthur; and Lewis's explication.)

Since then some studies of the poems have appeared, but I haven't kept up with them. I think one study, by Roma King, may be particularly well regarded.

They cost a penny or two on Amazon, where I'm used to waiting for books to turn up for 1p plus postage, but seeing you describe them as 'indispensable' might get me to dip into my pockets. Didn't know Lewis did a commentary, even more interesting.

 

[Extollager]

Read some new Tolkien here!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/oct/09/jrr-tolkien-new-poem-king-arthur

Since this article quotes the forthcoming book's opening lines, you can read some previously unpublished Tolkien today.

 

[Galacticdefender]

Awesome. I will most definitely be reading this.

 

[Extollager]

They cost a penny or two on Amazon, where I'm used to waiting for books to turn up for 1p plus postage, but seeing you describe them as 'indispensable' might get me to dip into my pockets. Didn't know Lewis did a commentary, even more interesting.

I can't speak for the Roma King study from personal experience. The Lewis commentary was invaluable. In 1976, my favorite undergrad teacher and I had a reading in conference arrangement whereby we read Taliessin Through Logres, The Region of the Summer Stars, CW's Arthurian Torso, and Lewis's commentary (all of which were in that excellent yellow Eerdmans paperback).

I wouldn't have finished reading them on my own as this was poetry much more "advanced" than what I was accustomed to (e.g. Tennyson). Looking back, I am impressed by the professor's restraint in not saying things that would have sent me scurrying off on various interesting side trails relating to backgrounds for Williams's idiosyncratic thought.

Within the past few years all of CW's Arthurian poetry (the two books named above plus some other pieces) could be had in one paperback volume

, but absent the Lewis commentary and, I think, Williams's study of the Arthurian myth.

The Apocryphile edition might be the only in-print edition of Williams's Arthurian poetry, and I'm not sure it has everything in the middle book and doubt it has the Lewis commentary. Lewis worked with notes from Williams's letters that he had transcribed into his book(s). Yes, he kicked himself for not saving the letters, as well he might do. (I believe he didn't save letters as a rule. He reproached himself for forgetting that his friends might die.)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1933993928/?tag=brite-21

 

[River Boy]

Thanks Extollager, really interesting. Will definitely have my eye out for those editions - might call for a visit to Sedburgh some time.

 

[JORDAN.F.P.SMITH]

does anyone think Chris Tolkien is a pretty average writer? I really struggled with "Hurin" It just felt like fan fiction of JRR's not the real thing.

 

[nerd literature]

I didn't realize this was out till a few months ago when a customer came into the shop looking for it and when we checked we figured out it came out in May 2013. This will be a great addition to the Tolkien collections.

 

[Grimward]

does anyone think Chris Tolkien is a pretty average writer? I really struggled with "Hurin" It just felt like fan fiction of JRR's not the real thing.

Well, technically The Children of Hurin was still J.R.R. Tolkien's writing; son Christopher cleaned it up a bit for publication. "....it has seemed to me for a long time that there was a good case for presenting my father's long version of the legend of the Children of Hurin as an independent work, between its own covers, with a minimum of editorial presence...." (from Christopher Tolkien's preface in The Children of Hurin).

I have to confess that I haven't read Sire Gawain, et al yet, so I don't have exposure to JRR's treatment of the Aurthurian legend like I do to Middle Earth. I may pick this book up, though....

 

[PhillipAEllis]

Gawain and the Green Knight is a translation of the Mediaeval romance, rather than Tolkien's take on the Matter of Britain. That latter item is, properly, encased in The Fall of Arthur -- and having read the book recently enough, I can add that there are aspects of the work that shew an interesting take on the nature of Arthur's last campaigns. Of course I would have been ecstatic to see a completed (even if rough) poem, but am thankful for what we have.

 

[Bick]

I'm very unsure about this sort of thing. Posthumous publishings almost always make me a little suspicious. If JRRT thought it was good enough to publish while he was alive (and he was pretty popular while he was still alive), it would doubtless have been published then. Scraping the barrel?

 

[j d worthington]

I'm very unsure about this sort of thing. Posthumous publishings almost always make me a little suspicious. If JRRT thought it was good enough to publish while he was alive (and he was pretty popular while he was still alive), it would doubtless have been published then. Scraping the barrel?

It's a complex issue, and with someone like JRRT, even more so. From my reading of the books Christopher Tolkien has edited of his father's writings* I doubt the final phrase would fit. Flawed, unfinished, not polished, etc.; these might apply... but given Tolkien's place in the history of fantastic literature, even his fragmentary writings of very often of considerable interest, both to students of the field (or of literature in general) and to many general readers.

As for whether or not it should be published if JRRT himself didn't feel it was "up to snuff"... well, HPL considered both The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath and The Case of Charles Dexter Ward to be of that nature, and never even typed them up; yet they are both considered to be among his most important works (though one or the other may not be to the taste of a particular reader). A writer isn't always the best judge of the quality of their work.

There is also the fact that, even though he had reached a fair degree of popularity during his life... no, much of his writing would not have been published, even had he submitted it. He attempted to interest his publishers in The Silmarillion (or portions of it) for decades, with no success. Quality isn't the deciding factor when it comes to publishing so much as whether a publisher thinks a work will sell or not, and with the plethora of Arthurian writings around, it could well be this would not have been considered a worthwhile risk by either party.

Frankly, I think even his "misfires" tend to be worth reading, as they not only provide insights into Tolkien's mind and other of his works, but at times contain some of his most beautiful prose; at least at a high enough rate that I find it well worth my while to read them.

*I have not read them all, but I have read The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, the twelve volumes of The History of Middle-earth)

 

[Extollager]

Scraping the barrel?

Oh no, not at all, as regards Tolkien. For example, a while ago I read at last Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth in the History of Middle-earth volume called Morgoth's Ring. I will say only that it is important indeed for Tolkien's conception of the destinies of Elves and Men; intellectually stimulating; and moving. It is a major work, although not one for people new to Tolkien. Or take the long portion of Sauron Defeated that is given over to Tolkien's unfinished novel The Notion Club Papers, which I would say begins as an occasionally satirical fictional symposium and develops into the closest thing Tolkien ever wrote to a Lovecraft novel. If you like Tolkien and you like "The Shadow Out of Time," hasten to get hold of this remarkable work.

After you've become acquainted with Notion Club, check out the blog on it written by Dr. Bruce Charlton, Reader in Evolutionary Psychiatry at Newcastle University. He's been squeezing interesting things out of the Papers for several years.

http://notionclubpapers.blogspot.com/


My feelings towards Christopher Tolkien are gratitude for making these things available and admiration for his searching and uniquely insightful scholarship. Thanks to Christopher and his publishers, one doesn't have to travel to Oxford or Marquette to review Tolkien's manuscripts. A guy like me in rural North Dakota can explore the development of Tolkien's images and ideas without ever leaving home.

Publisher cupidity? Hardly -- given that one or two of the posthumous books haven't even been picked up by Tolkien's American publisher. At least, so far as I know the critical edition of the "On Fairy-Stories" essay (ed. Flieger and Anderson) was not published here. It contains some nuggets I was very glad to get hold of, such as Tolkien on M. R. James's Ghost Stories of an Antiquary and J. M. Barrie's play Mary Rose (which was revived here in the US a few years ago, btw).

I admit I'm behind in my Tolkien reading and haven't read the two recent books, the Sigurd and Gudrun and the Fall of Arthur fragments. I'm thankful to have them.

I do think it would be nice to have a sort of thick "Best of" the History of Middle-earth and other posthumous books. Much in these books is indeed for the Tolkienist, but there are fans of LOTR etc. who would like some of the items found in their pages, suitably introduced.