Those Endearing Orcs

JoanDrake

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I must admit to some affection for orcs and always found it a major flaw in LotR. Nothing and nobody is all bad, even in allegorical fantasy

Are there any books that deal with Orcs as heroes, or at least as people, rather than just representations of evil?

(I don't mean within the Tolkien books, necessarily, but as Orcs are now generally used in Fantasy)
 
Isn't there a book by Stan Nicholls (?), called Orcs?

I've not read it, but someone I used to work with has, and liked it. Not sure about her taste recommendations, as we have very different preferences in fiction. Anyway, the orcs are the main characters, so I presume they can't all be totally bad in it.
 
Mary Gentle's Grunts is very good, funny, but not for anyone of delicate disposition.

It is all told around the orcs, the foot soldiers of the forces of dark. They are both horrible and sympathetic. She takes a rise out of the forces of light (really humourless and prissy) and pretty much every standard fantasy "trope" then moves onto buddy army movies.

The war reporter, a photogenic elf who stares at a bewitched pigeon instead of a camera is pretty memorable too.

Stan Nicholls has written several Orcs books. I read the first one, well written but not enough to my taste to go on to the sequel. (Which doesn't help you much.)
 
I confess I abandoned Nicholls' Orcs half way through the book. It just seemed to me to be filled with gratuitously graphic descrptions of violence; chopped off arms flying through the air, bood spurting and pumping everywhere. I'm not squeamish but that level if descrption just seemed unnecessary to me and wasn't to my taste.
 
In the Elder Scrolls universe (not a book of course, but a good example) the Orcs are pretty much treated as people, and some are even what you might call civilized. Some serve in the Imperial Legion, etc.
 
I must admit to some affection for orcs and always found it a major flaw in LotR. Nothing and nobody is all bad, even in allegorical fantasy

Tolkein agreed with you.

A major theme in his mythos was that evil people always started out as good, but became corrupted over time into two-dimensional villains. Sauron and Melkor both began with noble or understandable reasons for becoming bad guys, but became increasingly selfish, spiteful and petty (as well as increasingly weaker and less powerful as a direct result) as time went on.

The orcs were actually a source of some annoyance for Tolkein, because he had trouble with an entire race of evil creatures himself. The movie uses one of his many discarded attempts to try and justify that- namely, that they used to be Elves, until the forces of evil kidnapped and tortured them until they became ugly, hateful monsters. But he didn't like that idea, and never really found an explanation that he liked.

Anyway, you are probably better looking at World of Warcraft novels or something to find less or non-villainous orcs.
 
The movie uses one of his many discarded attempts to try and justify that- namely, that they used to be Elves, until the forces of evil kidnapped and tortured them until they became ugly, hateful monsters. But he didn't like that idea, and never really found an explanation that he liked.

Interesting. I always thought that Tolkien had used this explanation explicitly, perhaps because it was illustrated in David day's Tolkien Bestiary, but in The Silmarillion it says only this (or this is all I can find):

Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari [Elves] who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said.

"Of the Sindar"

So it seems he only hinted at it. What's your source for the fact that he didn't like the explanation? Is it mentioned in his letters?
 
Interesting. I always thought that Tolkien had used this explanation explicitly, perhaps because it was illustrated in David day's Tolkien Bestiary, but in The Silmarillion it says only this (or this is all I can find):



"Of the Sindar"

So it seems he only hinted at it. What's your source for the fact that he didn't like the explanation? Is it mentioned in his letters?


From the Silmarillion;

"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi [Elves] who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes....This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar."


Tolkien came up with a range of different explanations for the Orcs, and as you'd expect with a complex, constantly evolving project, there are some contradictions there. Here's a summary of his proposed explanations:

1. From the Earth
His earliest explanation is that Melkor made them from the earth, however this explanation quickly became obsolete as he made it clear only Eru Ilúvatar could create life.

2. Avari (East Elves)
According to the Silmarillion Melkor caught some of the Avari and corrupted them into the first Orcs.

3. Sentient Beasts
In "Morgoth's Ring" he proposes that Orcs are essentially beasts, corrupted into humanoid form, which have only the mimickery of speech, like a parrot. I would note, however, that this directly contradicts how Orcs are portrayed in "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" where they are clearly intelligent and have free and independent will, even forming social order.

4. Fallen Maiar
The "History of Middle-earth" series has passages that strongly suggest that some particularly notable Orcs are actually fallen Maiar.

5. Corrupted Men
According to Christopher Tolkien in "Morgoth's Ring", at some point Tolkien began to reconsider the "corrupted from Elves" explanation, and instead started looking at them being created by the corruption of men by Morgoth. However this would have required a major modification of the timeline as men hadn't been awakened when Orcs first appeared. Tolkien died before he could make this change.

6. Corrupted Men and Elves
A later explanation, possibly to address the problem with the above explanation, is that Orcs were a combination of corrupted Elves and corrupted Men.

Again, from "Morgoth's Ring" (note the later spelling change to "Ork")

"Since Melkor could not 'create' an independent species, but had immense powers of corruption and distortion of those that came into his power, it is probable that these Orks had a mixed origin. Most of them plainly (and biologically) were corruptions of Elves (and probably later also of Men). But always among them (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes. (These would exhibit terrifying and demonic characters.)"

Finally, another suggestion in "Morgoth's Ring" is that Saruman later cross-bred Orcs with Men, possibly explaining the creation of Saruman's Uruk-Hai. (Treebeard also suggests this in LOTR itself).

Dismissing the first explanation (as it directly contradicts a fundamental principal of the world), I see no reason why the other explanations can't all be true. If we take it that the Orcs were originally created by corrupting Elves, this doesn't exclude Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron later using the same techniques to corrupt Men and beasts to create additional Orcs (presumably Men and beasts would be easier to corrupt, explaining why later efforts would be focused on them). Neither do any of these explanations preclude individual "special" Orcs being corrupted and fallen Maiar.
Finally, Saruman explored cross-breeding of his existing Orcs with Men to create Uruk-Hai.
 
Are there any books that deal with Orcs as heroes, or at least as people, rather than just representations of evil?

The Orcs in LOTR aren't evil. They're industrialists. Okay, admittedly Tolkien considered industrialists evil, but still...
 
"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi [Elves] who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes....This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar."

Doh! I remember now, this was the passage quoted in David Day's Bestiary. Thanks for an interesting and (seemingly) exhaustive post, Gumboot.
 
I do have some sympathy for orcs in LOTR. They are created by evil creatures and forced to serve their masters through fear.

All they have known is evil and cruelty, and so act accordingly - they have never known anything different.

They only exception to this are the Uruk-Hai, who Saruman seems to enjoy the company of (anything rather than Worm Tongue!). It is the only time that we see a better side to these poor creatures, and they show affection for their master with his nickname 'Sharkey'. They are fearlessly devoted to him , and whilst the orcs of Mordor do their master's bidding through fear, Saruman's troops appear to do it through devotion.

It is interesting that whilst on several occasions the orcs are shown to take prisoners, the 'good guys' are merciless when dealing with them.
 

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