Feminist Science Fiction

[Victoria Silverwolf]

There are extreme feminist also . . .

Indeed, although I think this is an extremely tiny group, greatly blown out of proportion by anti-feminists. The most "extreme" feminist of importance within speculative fiction, for example, is probably Joanna Russ, and I think her writings, often quite angry, are legitimate responses to what she perceives as an oppressive, patriarchal society.

do I have to eviscerate myself in order to write feminist SFF?

Certainly not. I don't think that mainstream feminism is anti-male at all.

What does that term "feminist" mean to you?

Excellent question. See my first post for my self-description as a "liberal feminist." Although I suspect there are many issues about which you and I would disagree, since I pretty much fit the stereotype (at least within American politics) as a bleeding-heart liberal, I believe that there are many about which we would agree also.

Moreover, what type of statement, (because the story would be a statement,) would you make?

There are many statements one could make through one's fiction. There are many issues relevant to feminism which can be explored through speculative fiction: gender roles, reproductive technology and its influence on society, and so on.

As a male, what statement would I make about society and myself by writing feminist prose? Is this an exclusive clubhouse being built or can I join in with dignity?

You could certainly choose to make whatever kind of a statement you feel is best expressed in your fiction. (One of the many types of feminist philosophy is "libertarian feminism," which would seem appropriate for you.) I would be delighted to see more men write about issues relevant to feminism.

Incidentally, Victoria, while I'm here, we try to discourage consecutive posting so that members have one long post when replying to others, rather than several shorter ones. I think this is different from other sites so it's a bit confusing, but Chrons does tend to do things differently! If you want to quote several posts (and there's no need to, just referring to the other posts is enough) then there's a multi-quote button -- the one with a pair of quotation marks and a + sign to the right of the ordinary quote button. Press that on every post you want to quote, then the ordinary quote and they will all come up in order, and there you are!

Thank you for pointing that out!

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Um, so one of the things I am trying to do in my new wip is have two female protagonists, and tell the tale of space exploration through them.
There won't be militancy, that isn't what I want to touch on, but it occurred to me that with a classic sci fi theme and our knowledge that when at the frontier women forge it quietly and give much, and often lose most, I wanted to try to capture that? I have no idea if I can, or if I will shelve it until a more competent writer, but that to me is feminism: a consideration of the impact of events on women, and an exploration o how that can be met by women. There are a million stories out there from the male perspective, fewer from the female.

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

Um, so one of the things I am trying to do in my new wip is have two female protagonists, and tell the tale of space exploration through them.
There won't be militancy, that isn't what I want to touch on, but it occurred to me that with a classic sci fi theme and our knowledge that when at the frontier women forge it quietly and give much, and often lose most, I wanted to try to capture that? I have no idea if I can, or if I will shelve it until a more competent writer, but that to me is feminism: a consideration of the impact of events on women, and an exploration o how that can be met by women. There are a million stories out there from the male perspective, fewer from the female.

There has certainly been a quiet revolution within the genre, since about the late sixties, where one can have female protagonists within an SF story without making a big deal about it. I believe that most readers of SF nowadays have no trouble taking a female protagonist for granted. (Compare this to pre-Sixties SF, where a female protagonist was unusual enough to be worth noting.) Although I enjoy a lot of old SF, it's a bit disconcerting to read books where adult males are always called "men" are referred to by their last names, and adult females are always called "girls" and referred to by their first names!

 

[Stephen4444]

(One of the many types of feminist philosophy is "libertarian feminism," which would seem appropriate for you.) I would be delighted to see more men write about issues relevant to feminism.

I find that statement very interesting.... guess I have learned something.

Thankyou,

 

[The Judge]

Although I enjoy a lot of old SF, it's a bit disconcerting to read books where adult males are always called "men" are referred to by their last names, and adult females are always called "girls" and referred to by their first names!

That's if the women are present at all! I picked up a collection of very early Asimov short stories this year and in twelve stories featuring dozens of characters there were only three women, two of whom had negligible roles (both wives, one scarcely speaking, the other a termagant) and the third was... well, she's best forgotten... Quite literally in ten of the stories no women exist.


I've been thinking about Stephen's question overnight, and then reading about the Bushmaster "Man Card" advertisement for its semi-automatic weaponry (Teresa's post here http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1666366-post70.html) one issue resolved itself. I certainly don't think you need to be female to write a feminist story, so there's no need for Stephen to worry about emasculating himself, but I do think you need to be a feminist, in however loose a definition of that word. A man who thinks a woman's place is two steps behind her husband on those odd occasions he allows her out of the kitchen and bedroom, and that she should be content with whatever scraps of freedom he and his sons allow her, is not going to be able to write convincingly of her role in society from a feminist viewpoint. He might make points in his books which illustrate feminist arguments, in that we would see the suppression of his women and ridicule his ideas, but that's likely as far as it goes.

 

[Montero]

I prefer the term "equality". I think that there are injustices the "other way around" too. As in societies expectations of, and fears about, men. Two almost random examples - male single parents can be regarded with suspicion when waiting for their kids outside of school. Men "shouldn't wear pink".

Why do we have to have blinking gender stereotyping at all?
There are women who can work out what is wrong with a car engine, men who can't, etc, etc.
It is so boring to have to keep dealing with someone being surprised that you can do "x" - "oh you can do "x" but you're a man/woman" (delete where applicable).

I also once knew a lady who wanted to be an old fashioned wife - but kept apologising for it. She liked keeping house and cossetting her man and that made her happy. But she was well aware that it was considered old fashioned. (I think the important point is she got to chose, it wasn't forced on her, but still she felt the need to apologise.)

So I am all for any book that looks at roles in society, but am more comfortable reading ones that don't assume that men always have it better than women.

Further thought
In Dorothy Sayers "Gaudy Night" which from memory was written 1930s, the detective protagonist Lord Peter Wimsy is at dinner in a women's college at Oxford. One of the female Dons asks him what his views are on the question of education for women, to which he replied "is it still a question?"

What I am trying to say is that at some point the fight is won, surely? There is a danger of going too far (which is also the subject of some sf with heavily matriarchal societies with the suppression of men) and well, lets hear it for tolerance and equality.

Heck it is Christmas. And after all, as it says in Terry Pratchett's Unadulterated Cat, it is the time of year when the TV once again reminds us that there was a saviour born on earth and his name was Bond, James Bond.
(Which just came to mind in the context of Christmas, not feminism, though because he is male... aargh, I'm off to read a book. . On vampires. )

 

[Connavar]

The fight is far from won just because women got education and voting almost a century ago. There is vast gender inequality still today. Here in Sweden girls are better in school, more of them in higher education and less educated men still have the best jobs, have more of men that find easy to find the jobs. Female bosses have it hard to keep their job if they want to get a leave for having baby. Swedish goverment is making laws to make the workplace more equal. Im sure its the same problem in most countries in the west that think they are so modern, civilised. I dont even have to mention third world countries like my homeland that men treat women like its in the dark ages just because of tradition and not because of religion.....

RW Connell talked about Hedgemony Masculinatity in her famous book that dominate our world today. Gay, colored men dont have the same power but their issues isnt the same as women that have to live in masulinatity dominated society.

The things John Stuart Mill talked about in his 1860 Subjecation of Women is still true today. Just because its is better today than yesterday doesnt mean there is total gender equality today. Mens position can never be compared to womens today.

This is why i will look for good serious litterature about gender issues in SF and in other fields like classic fiction and modern general fiction.

 

[The Judge]

What I am trying to say is that at some point the fight is won, surely?

Would that it were, even in the West, as can be seen at any casual glance at female rates of pay, female representation in government and the higher echelons of the civil service, in private companies, at the incidence of rape and domestic violence.

And when a schoolgirl can be shot simply for attending school in Afghanistan, and women are not allowed to drive or have basic freedoms in other Arab countries...

NB In Gaudy Night, of course, not everyone ascribes to the idea of female equality even in education (though admittedly that person isn't the sanest...)

and well, lets hear it for tolerance and equality.

Hear, hear. But I think we have to make the point (and keep on making it) that equality won't come if we are complacent -- it had to be fought for, and we still need to fight, not least against those who think it's gone far enough, or even too far.

 

[j d worthington]

No, the battle is far from won. In fact, there have been some serious retrenchings going on in the U.S. of late concerning women's rights and equality, and I'm afraid it's going to take another social revolution to put things to rights there... which is sad, as I'd really hoped we'd learned better.

As far as the relevance of such fiction, I think Joanna Russ summed it up best in her closing to The Female Man:

Do not scream when you are ignored, for that will alarm people, and do not fume when you are heisted by persons who will not pay, rather rejoice that you have become so popular. Live merrily, little daughter-book, even if I can't and we can't; recite yourself to all who will listen; stay hopeful and wise. Wash your face and take your place without a fuss in the Library of Congress, for all books end up there eventually, both little and big. Do not complain when at last you become quaint and old-fashioned, when you grow as outworn as the crinolines of a generation ago and are classed with Spicy Western Stories, Elsie Dinsmore, and The Son of the Sheik; do not mutter angrily to yourself when young persons read you to hrooch and hrch and guffaw, wondering what the dickens you were all about. Do not get glum when you are no longer understood, little book. Do not curse your fate. Do not reach up from readers' laps and punch the readers' noses.

Rejoice, little book!

For on that day, we will be free.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid such a day is a looong way off.....

 

[Montero]

Just for clarification -
I don't think the fight for female equality is won and didn't think that what I said implied that. Obviously I was not clear enough.
I do agree that the battle is at different stages in different countries.

What I was trying to get across was

1. At some point a battle is won, and planning for that and not continuing to fight because you are so used to fighting and thereby tipping the scales the other way is an essential thing to do too.

2. I am concerned how gender stereotypes are pervasive in society and I think that concept helps to fuel discrimination against women but also fuels various ways in which men are misperceived and mistreated.

3. I am also concerned, that just because people have fought and are fighting for women to be educated, have a job, for there to be no difference from a man's prospects, if a woman doesn't fancy that and would prefer to be a stay-at-home wife, then that should be fine too. (And we should reach the point that if it is the man staying at home to raise kids while woman goes out to work, that doesn't raise any eyebrows.)

4. Arising from 3 in the broader sense, if the fight was not just for female equality, but for a sense that a person's gender should not be used to define their abilities and role in life, then a woman who wants to stay at home would not feel the need to apologise for not being a modern woman. (The person I mentioned in my earlier comments.)

Gaudy Night - the character who thought women should not be educated, was a woman. Sometimes one's own gender is harsher in their perceptions of the way one should behave than the opposite gender.

Why do we still have gender expectations regarding clothes? While women in trousers is mostly OK, there is still a bit of an expectation that for a really formal occasion a dress or skirt is essential. A man in public in a skirt (anything other than a kilt) would draw stares. Why is it not OK to wear whatever you are most comfortable in, whatever your gender, whether it is a skirt or trousers?

In a broader sense I find a lot of limited and intolerant attitudes very frustrating - for example the assumption that someone who is scruffily dressed is more likely to be dangerous than someone in a neat suit. As a student heaving a load of bags around at the end of term on the station, I actually found that it was the scruffies who were far more likely to help than the suit brigade - the suit brigade were more likely to mow you down in their hurry to get to a meeting.

Stereotypes and the lazy thinking that goes with it are one of the pillars of intolerance.

 

[James Coote]

You can explore gender without being feminist. It's the role of gender in society (with the underlying message of equality) that marks something out as feminist.

Did anyone read this?: http://io9.com/5969540/this-erotica-book-might-be-the-years-most-dangerous-science-fiction-anthology

It makes the point about sex being used as a plot device in the same way a hyperdrive or time machine is used in sf. Obviously, many of the characters weilding such devices are women. Does that make the writing feminist (considering the target audience are almost certainly majority men seeking sexual gratification)?

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

You can explore gender without being feminist. It's the role of gender in society (with the underlying message of equality) that marks something out as feminist.

Did anyone read this?: http://io9.com/5969540/this-erotica-book-might-be-the-years-most-dangerous-science-fiction-anthology

It makes the point about sex being used as a plot device in the same way a hyperdrive or time machine is used in sf. Obviously, many of the characters weilding such devices are women. Does that make the writing feminist (considering the target audience are almost certainly majority men seeking sexual gratification)?

Good question. Given the fact that this review states that the stories in this anthology are not "heteronormative," it seems likely that most, if not all, of the authors start with the presumption that the traditional sex roles in society are not the only possibilities. Thus, it seems likely that some of the stories in the book would have a feminist viewpoint. There is certainly such a thing as feminist erotica (just as there is such a thing as antifeminist erotica, such as the Gor novels in the opinion of many, which The Encyclopedia of Fantasy describes as "extremely sexist, sadomasochistic pornography involving the ritual humiliation of women.")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gor

 

[j d worthington]

Some good points, Montero. I think, on the first issue, that we have come to a point where too many think the battle has been won, and therefore we have become lazy and less wary about such rights being eroded. Hence the possible misreading of your post.

I also think that it is far too easy to get into that "battle-ready" stance as a permanent thing, another thing to be wary of. After all, we have seen this happen with many a social reformer as well as those who have fought in actual military conflicts. There is also the tendency to make a "mea culpa" attitude the common one, and therefore tend toward a defeatist attitude that though we are all guilty, we cannot change these things. (See Ellison's "Silent in Gehenna".)

On the gender stereotypes... there has been a lot of (to me, very important) discussion of this very topic going on of late years, challenging nearly every aspect of our ideas of sexuality and sexual roles. While I don't necessarily agree with some of the more radical approaches, I do think a lot of what is coming out of these debates may well prove helpful in eroding a hidebound traditionalism in favor of a more humane approach to a variety of roles for each of the sexes.

A lot has still to be accomplished on this, and in a lot of different areas. Essentially, we have only just begun to really alter our thinking here, and it's going to be a long uphill battle; but as women have generally been more oppressed in most societies where equality is concerned -- even within the slave community, the women were not infrequently seen as lesser beings -- it is not surprising that the label "feminism" still seems particularly relevant. To add to the quote from Joanna earlier, it will be a joyous day when that simply becomes "humanism", representing all in name as well as deed.

 

[Connavar]

Just for clarification -
I don't think the fight for female equality is won and didn't think that what I said implied that. Obviously I was not clear enough.
I do agree that the battle is at different stages in different countries.

What I was trying to get across was

1. At some point a battle is won, and planning for that and not continuing to fight because you are so used to fighting and thereby tipping the scales the other way is an essential thing to do too.

2. I am concerned how gender stereotypes are pervasive in society and I think that concept helps to fuel discrimination against women but also fuels various ways in which men are misperceived and mistreated.

3. I am also concerned, that just because people have fought and are fighting for women to be educated, have a job, for there to be no difference from a man's prospects, if a woman doesn't fancy that and would prefer to be a stay-at-home wife, then that should be fine too. (And we should reach the point that if it is the man staying at home to raise kids while woman goes out to work, that doesn't raise any eyebrows.)

4. Arising from 3 in the broader sense, if the fight was not just for female equality, but for a sense that a person's gender should not be used to define their abilities and role in life, then a woman who wants to stay at home would not feel the need to apologise for not being a modern woman. (The person I mentioned in my earlier comments.)

Gaudy Night - the character who thought women should not be educated, was a woman. Sometimes one's own gender is harsher in their perceptions of the way one should behave than the opposite gender.

Why do we still have gender expectations regarding clothes? While women in trousers is mostly OK, there is still a bit of an expectation that for a really formal occasion a dress or skirt is essential. A man in public in a skirt (anything other than a kilt) would draw stares. Why is it not OK to wear whatever you are most comfortable in, whatever your gender, whether it is a skirt or trousers?

In a broader sense I find a lot of limited and intolerant attitudes very frustrating - for example the assumption that someone who is scruffily dressed is more likely to be dangerous than someone in a neat suit. As a student heaving a load of bags around at the end of term on the station, I actually found that it was the scruffies who were far more likely to help than the suit brigade - the suit brigade were more likely to mow you down in their hurry to get to a meeting.

Stereotypes and the lazy thinking that goes with it are one of the pillars of intolerance.

Your 3th and 4th points is something that happens often. There are many women who limit other women place and those people shouldnt matter they are a part of the problem if they are a woman or a man. I know women in my family who wanted to limit my sisters to their gender, place as a house wife. That ignorance,inequality is what we must fight.

Im just saying we shouldnt feel comfortable today when we still talk about the same old gender equality issues because they havent improved greatly. It is still too much of a man world even if there are some men who are mistreated.

I have grown up disgusted seen what people expected of my sisters,limiting them to their gender. No its not only because of im from some third world country. Samething happen here.

 

[Montero]

Re: Feminist Science Fiction (and fantasy now)

Thanks everyone for understanding what I was really trying to say.

A few further thoughts on all of this.

I am not convinced that we should concentrate solely on women's rights, because they have so much less than men. I think relaxing the gender expectancy rules for men, at the same time as working on the rules for women, may actually help the women. The reason for this is that say a man grows up being taught rules on how men behave and how women behave. He may not like all the rules for how men are supposed to behave, but he is good, he sucks it up and does what is expected of him. Then along comes someone who says the rules for women are unfair and wants to change those rules. But there is no-one saying the rules for men are unfair, including all those rules that he dislikes. So wouldn't a very common reaction be, "I as a man have to do stuff to rules I don't like, why does she have to get special treatment, why are the rules being bent for her?" If instead, someone is saying the rules for both should change, then some men may become a lot happier about women's roles changing because they too are getting to ignore rules they don't like. It wouldn't work for all men, but I think it would help.

In terms of same sex limitations on and expectations of gender behaviour - and in my experience too there is a lot of that about - I think some of it again comes back to rules.

Thought processes like:
1. Obeying rules makes the world an ordered place where there are no unexpected events. (Well, in theory.) So people breaking rules could put me in harm's way.

2. Teaching children rules to keep them safe - don't put your fingers in the fire, don't be different (so be a proper woman/man) or people will pick on you.

3. Teaching children rules to keep parents safe/to gain kudos and respect for parents. As in the father's sons are all "manly" and the mother's daughters are all "womanly" and so there is nothing that anyone could criticise and much that could be praised (by people who like the manly/womanly rules).

A brief story - my mother told me this about a friend of her family happened at the end of the 1940s. During the war a lot of women in the UK took to wearing trousers as they were doing work where it was better to do so - car mechanics, munitions factory etc and during the war, for the duration of the crisis, this was accepted (grudgingly in some cases).
After the war, smartly cut slacks did become fashionable for women, but there was quite a lot of resistance about it now the war was over. The woman in the story was walking down the street wearing smartly cut slacks, and had her two young children with her. Someone (and I cannot remember if it was male or female) stood in her path and bawled her out for wearing trousers saying that a woman like her should not be permitted to keep her children.

And finally - it occurs to me that I have just been reading some Feminist Fantasy - by Barbara Hambly.

1. Sisters of the Raven and its sequel Circle of the Moon. It is set in a desert city with hareems, where women are chattels. A linchpin of the survival of the city is the annual rains to fill the reservoirs, tanks and lakes. These rains are brought by the spells wrought by the order of Sun Mages. Also, the granaries and food stores are protected from rats by spells and spells keep the mosquitoes at bay.
One small problem. Up and until shortly before the opening of the book, some men had magic, women had none. This is changing with men losing their magic and a few women starting to show magical powers. The book opens with yet another attempt by the Sun Mages to bring rain, with their numbers including one of the new female magic workers.
The story follows Raeshaldis, the first ever female magic worker in the order of Sun Mages, Oryn, the rather un-macho King, Persimmon Woman and Foxfire girl two of the other female magic workers. The women with magic have been handed real power and that always stirs things up.

2. The Ladies of Madrigyn. It is a fairly classic fantasy - armies, mercenaries, warring towns, magic - but not entirely. Before the opening of the book, the wizard Altiokis grew far more powerful than the other wizards and now rules from a citadel and has killed or driven into hiding all other wizards. The Citadel is near the city of Madrigyn and all the men have been taken to be slaves to work in the mines. The Ladies of Madrigyn get together enough money to hire a mercenary troop so they can free the men from the citadel. A small party travels to another city where a siege has just ended and tries to hire Sunwolf's troop, but Sunwolf turns them down - he has no desire to go up against Altiokis.
Not taking no for an answer, they kidnap him - one of their number is a mage that Altiokis missed. Not very powerful in terms of going up against Altiokis, but more than enough for kidnapping a barbarian mercenary. Sunwolf finishes up in Madrigyn, training the ladies themselves in fighting, so that they can go up against Altiokis. It is a great story in terms of adventure, and also gives a very interesting picture of the different ways in which different women might fight. (Barbara Hambly does martial arts herself.)

 

[James Coote]

Indeed, there are certain topics that men (according to society) can't talk about. Emotions and relationships aren't acceptable pub talk topics. In fact, male (drinking) society espouses anti-intellectualism.

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

I can certainly agree that men suffer greatly from gender stereotypes. In modern western society, many women are proud of having been tomboys. There are few men who are allowed to be proud of having been janegirls.

 

[Montero]

And I'd never even heard the term Janegirls. Doesn't that say something.

Even though it is "against the rules" there is a widely known term for girls being boyish, but I'd never heard the term for boys being girlish. I note that

1. It is difficult to write a sentence about gender stereotypes without using gender stereotypical terms (boyish, girlish)

2. The term Tomboy being more widely known than Janegirl says it is more OK for girls to aspire to be boys than vice versa.


Or as you said Victoria, women are proud of having been tomboys but men don't mention the Janegirl.

Wah

People don't half make life complicated for themselves. I blame the big brains we've all got - too much processing capacity going idle means you have to do something with it, useful or not.

 

[tinkerdan]

So my question is is Feminist Science Fiction or writing so much about Feminist or is it more of a true stretch to equality.

I see some arguments that seem to tend to draw it into that direction.

Just the fact that there are stereotypes for both sides makes me wonder if were looking to change just one or maybe all the stereo types and just how do you do that and continue to be creative and pose characters that are real?

Let's face it many of the good characterizations come out of stereotypes.

I don't think that we can get away from all of them.

It seems as though even to do the Feminist writing we have to consider that there is a balance that has to be maintained or the fabric of the whole piece might dissolve into some sort of cardboard world.

While trying to avoid the cliche of character an author could be drawn too deep into the none cliche that will end up looking like and endless loop of the same new cliche.

 

[j d worthington]

There have been discussions about this before, but the quick version is: there is a difference between types and stereotypes. "Types" are recognizable, but not cut from the same cloth; they also blend in plenty of genuine personality differences based on the writer's observations of human behavior and psychology. Stereotypes, on the other hand, may have individual quirks, but are nonetheless (to reuse the phrase) cut of the same cloth. They are recognizable not only in the general sense, but a sort of follow-the-dots type of characterization.

Even stereotypes have their uses (as in parody), but they should be used with extreme care, or it becomes difficult to take the writer's work at all seriously... even as entertainment.