Catelyn Stark and Cersei Lannister are Jonahs?

[svalbard]

This is a half-baked idea. Do both of these characters act as the downfall of their Houses? Take Mrs. Stark as an example for the pivotal moments she plays in the plot of the story. Her seizure of Tyrion, precipitates the clash between Jaime and Ned and ultimately to Ned's death. Her actions around the release of Jaime, ultimately leads to Rob making some rather harsh decisions that may have influenced Roose Bolton's mind on his ultimate course of actions.(That of course is very much open to debate)

The Red Wedding, what more needs to be said. Is she the ultimate Jonah? Take Catelyn out of the equation and the Starks would be in a far more beneficial situation. You could add House Tully to that and also the whole of Westoras. Was there a Clash of Houses coming, yes there was, but without the actions of Catelyn it could have resulted in a less devastating outcome.

To a point that might be raised. Ned's decision to declare Joffery illegitimate would have brought about all of the above may be true. But he would have being in a stronger position due to not releasing some of his household guard to support Beric Dondarrion. Which was a direct result of Tyrion's arrest. He would also have had Jaime in King's Landing and more time to plan and contact Stannis. In other words his HAND would not have being forced into play at such an early stage.

To Cersei...her sins are multiple in that she believed she had the power to control a Patriarchal society through her influence on Joffery. Her biggest mistake was trusting her maternal hold over her son. The execution of Ned was the moment she lost control of events. Ever since she has being scrambling like a fourth choice quarter-back, with one inept decision after another. Events are what they are. Yet they can be controlled to a certain extent, but my belief is that both Catelyn and Cersei allowed events to overtake themselves.

 

[juleska]

The Red Wedding, considered as an isolated event, is much more Robb's fault than Catelyn's. You could also argue that her seizure of Tyrion is less her fault than Littlefinger's who blatantly lied about the owner of the blade sent after her son. Sure, she didn't have to seize Tyrion and, sure, there were loads of consequences from that choice that rapidly unraveled things. But if you back out even further, Bran never would've been crippled had he not seen Jaime and Cersei together. And Jaime and Cersei never would have been in Winterfell had Robert not come north to secure Ned as his new Hand. And he never would've come north to secure Ned as his NEW Hand had his OLD Hand, Jon Arryn, not been murdered by (AFFC spoiler) his wife. And his wife never would have murdered him had it not been Littlefinger's suggestion.

So really, the only reason we have a story is because of Littlefinger.

 

[The Imp]

The Red Wedding, considered as an isolated event, is much more Robb's fault than Catelyn's. You could also argue that her seizure of Tyrion is less her fault than Littlefinger's who blatantly lied about the owner of the blade sent after her son. Sure, she didn't have to seize Tyrion and, sure, there were loads of consequences from that choice that rapidly unraveled things. But if you back out even further, Bran never would've been crippled had he not seen Jaime and Cersei together. And Jaime and Cersei never would have been in Winterfell had Robert not come north to secure Ned as his new Hand. And he never would've come north to secure Ned as his NEW Hand had his OLD Hand, Jon Arryn, not been murdered by (AFFC spoiler) his wife. And his wife never would have murdered him had it not been Littlefinger's suggestion.

So really, the only reason we have a story is because of Littlefinger.

I need to think about the OP more, but it can easily be argued that at least cersei was always a pawn in the Game, even though she thinks that she's the one in control. I agree that Cat's "involvement" is more accidental than anything else.

Having said that, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. The end result may be that intent doesn't matter.

 

[Tywin]

Cat's freeing Jaime Lannister belongs only to Cat.

Or really I suppose it belongs to the author for "needing" Jaime freed enough that he would make Cat do something which still makes no sense at all. There was no real logic behind it, it is not something in line with Cat's character (or normal human decision making), and as I look back on it I think it was a Deus ex Machina for the author to get Jaime free to further develop his character.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Interesting discussion - when Catelyn was Ned's wife, she offered counsel and consolation, but when Robb became king she presumed to take control, and was absolutely dismal at it.

The example not mentioned which perhaps needs highlighting is when Robb needed to cross the twins. Catelyn claimed she knew how to handle the situation, and then practically signed over Robb's kingdom and future just to appease a churlish bannerman. Robb deferred authority to his mother, who - for all her sense of breeding and experience - botched the job so amazingly.

 

[juleska]

This is also a fair point. In all honesty, even the counsel she offered her husband was less than stellar. She sunk neck deep into the first conspiracy theory presented her when she got that hysterical letter from her crazy sister, and once Bran fell, she really started to crack. The more her family came to harm, the more irrational her behavior became. She was a good match for stable, predictable, cautious Ned, but the minute their stable world got upended she went cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

 

[juleska]

it can easily be argued that at least cersei was always a pawn in the Game, even though she thinks that she's the one in control.

Oh without question...in so many ways she's dumber than dear old Naive Ned.

I agree that Cat's "involvement" is more accidental than anything else.

Having said that, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. The end result may be that intent doesn't matter.

Unless I misunderstood the OP, I don't think this is a question about how well either of them play the Game of Thrones, but whether or not they are specifically responsible for the demise of their House.

My take is Cersei, most assuredly, Catelyn, eh, maybe. But there were far more impetuous, irrational and naive players involved in the undoing of both Houses Stark and Tully.

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***General Spoilers Thru AFFC Below***
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Edmure's behavior certainly didn't hedge any bets in their favor. Hoster's strangement from his battle-savvy brother much earlier left Edmure without a solid mentor and a great weakness while Hoster was fading and Edmure was still maturing. Lysa...need we say more? At least half of all the stupid things that Catelyn did are the direct result of Lysa's hysterical letter, which we now know to be an absolute fiction intended to send Catelyn on the wrong path, in order to divert attention away from her own misdeeds.

And with respect to the Starks: Catelyn's bad deal with the Freys might still have worked had Robb not gone and acted like a 15 year old boy instead of a young king. Further, Robb's insistence on trusting Theon (in spite of Catelyn's vehement objections) led directly to the fall of Winterfell. And of course, dear old Ned, walking unwittingly into the lion's jaws the way he did....none of that helped either. Just imagine if Ned and the girls had made it on that ship, and it was Ned crowned King in the North instead of Robb. All of Robb's mistakes wouldn't have occurred, all the deaths in the Red Wedding wouldn't have splintered the houses of the North. There would still be a formidable, tightly united front. And Pyke would not have risen because Theon would still be Ned's hostage.

In short, Catelyn had a great deal of help in undoing the Starks and the Tullys, and I don't think she can shoulder the blame alone. Cersei, on the other hand....

 

[svalbard]

And with respect to the Starks: Catelyn's bad deal with the Freys might still have worked had Robb not gone and acted like a 15 year old boy instead of a young king. Further, Robb's insistence on trusting Theon (in spite of Catelyn's vehement objections) led directly to the fall of Winterfell. And of course, dear old Ned, walking unwittingly into the lion's jaws the way he did....none of that helped either. Just imagine if Ned and the girls had made it on that ship, and it was Ned crowned King in the North instead of Robb. All of Robb's mistakes wouldn't have occurred, all the deaths in the Red Wedding wouldn't have splintered the houses of the North. There would still be a formidable, tightly united front. And Pyke would not have risen because Theon would still be Ned's hostage.

In short, Catelyn had a great deal of help in undoing the Starks and the Tullys, and I don't think she can shoulder the blame alone. Cersei, on the other hand....

I give you Edmure, not so much Theon. Balon was already planning his move against the North. His actions were helped by the strength of the Starks marching south in aid of Ned, an event that might have being forestalled if Tryion had not met up with Cat in a certain Inn. Ned was naive, but events conspired against him, with the actions of his wife pivotal in deciding his course of actions.

 

[Reivax26]

I was never a big fan of Cat to begin with. Hopefully Margaery Tyrell will kill Cersei or maybe Daenerys will if she ever crosses the ocean.

 

[juleska]

I give you Edmure, not so much Theon. Balon was already planning his move against the North. His actions were helped by the strength of the Starks marching south in aid of Ned, an event that might have being forestalled if Tryion had not met up with Cat in a certain Inn. Ned was naive, but events conspired against him, with the actions of his wife pivotal in deciding his course of actions.

Even still, if Balon had moved against the North while Theon remained by Robb's side, it would have been a different fight. And Robb would have returned to shore up Winterfell's defenses with a certainty. It was Theon who decided to take Winterfell, not Balon's idea. And if Robb hadn't put too much trust in Theon (against Catelyn's advice), then Theon wouldn't have been available to defy his father's plans and ultimately lead to Winterfell's downfall.

 

[Tywin]

I was never a big fan of Cat to begin with. Hopefully Margaery Tyrell will kill Cersei or maybe Daenerys will if she ever crosses the ocean.

What was the prophecy that always has Cersei acting like a complete lunatic? "Beware the young queen" or something like that?

Cersei seems to think that must be Margaery, but who are all the candidates? Daenerys Targaryen, Jayne Westerling, Arianne Martell... Myrcella Lannister?

 

[Reivax26]

Jeyne Westerling killing her would be an interesting twist although Arianne Martell would fit the role better I believe.

I am wondering what is going to happen to Jaime myself. I have the overwhelming feeling that he is going to die but in a heroic way that changes his perception among the normal citizens of Westeros.

 

[ThePro]

What was the prophecy that always has Cersei acting like a complete lunatic? "Beware the young queen" or something like that?

Cersei seems to think that must be Margaery, but who are all the candidates? Daenerys Targaryen, Jayne Westerling, Arianne Martell... Myrcella Lannister?

I've always felt like it was Dany, when Cersei thinks it's Margery. But the other candidates stand a chance, I suppose....

 

[juleska]

What was the prophecy that always has Cersei acting like a complete lunatic? "Beware the young queen" or something like that?

Cersei seems to think that must be Margaery, but who are all the candidates? Daenerys Targaryen, Jayne Westerling, Arianne Martell... Myrcella Lannister?

You certain the prophecy's to blame for her acting like a lunatic?

Maggy the Frog (Spoilers from AFFC)...

"Three questions you may ask," the crone said, once she'd had her drink. "You will not like my answers. Ask, or begone with you."

Go, the dreaming queen thought, hold your tongue, and flee. But the girl did not have sense enough to be afraid.

"When will I wed the prince?" she asked.

"Never. You will wed the king."

Beneath her golden curls, the girl's face wrinkled up in puzzlement. For years after, she took those words to mean that she would not marry Rhaegar until after his father Aerys had died. "I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

Anger flashed across the child's face. "If she tries I will have my brother kill her." Even then she would not stop, willful child as she was. She still had one more question due her, one more glimpse into her life to come. "Will the king and I have children?" she asked.

"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."

That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she'd cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands around your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

"Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

That could be any of the current or future queens in the story, but the best candidate is still Dany.

It can't be Myrcella because Myrcella is going to die. It's unlikely to be Jeyne only because she's not *really* a queen anymore. She is the wife of the deceased King in the North, and potentially pregnant....but she's a queen in name only. She has no king, no kingdom and no subjects.

Arianne is not a queen, she's a princess who may or may not end up married to someone who may or may not become king. Also unlikely.

Margaery....she's a queen, certainly, and younger and more beautiful. But is she in a position to "take all that she holds dear"? If Tommen dies, which he will, she is also a queen without a king, and if she doesn't have a bun in the oven she's one step behind Jeyne. But most importantly, it can't be Margaery because Cersei is certain it is Margaery, and Cersei is always wrong.

Dany....has an army, has a claim to the throne occupied by Tommen, has dragons, is certainly more beautiful and definitely younger, and has a particular bone to pick with House Lannister, of which only three people (only three who count, anyway) remain. One is on his way to join forces with Dany. One is roaming somewhere in the Riverlands with Brienne, and may or may not be around when Dany hits King's Landing. Only Cersei will be available to answer for the crimes of her house.

Cersei doesn't even know Dany exists. She treats these reports of dragons as fiction and a waste of her time. Robert may have been a drunken, whoring, boorish ass, but he did understand that Dany presented a threat to his hold of the Iron Throne.

Dany will finish off House Lannister, but hopefully not before Jaime has a chance to fulfill his destiny as valonqar.

 

[Tywin]

Dany will finish off House Lannister, but hopefully not before Jaime has a chance to fulfill his destiny as valonqar.

I've always believed that the valonqar would be Jaime because of the irony of it (and because I agree: Cersei is always wrong), but I just noticed something in the prophecy:

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands around your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Jaime can't do this.

Jaime only has one hand.

 

[Tywin]

What other "Brothers" are there out there?

Septons are brothers, right? Or how about men of the Night's Watch?

 

[juleska]

I've always believed that the valonqar would be Jaime because of the irony of it (and because I agree: Cersei is always wrong), but I just noticed something in the prophecy:



Jaime can't do this.

Jaime only has one hand.

Unless Jaime's hand is restored. He has a dream where his golden hand works like a normal hand, and there are more than a few priests running around that know how to restore the body. Victarian's already had his hand saved.

 

[juleska]

What other "Brothers" are there out there?

Septons are brothers, right? Or how about men of the Night's Watch?

Tommen is a little brother. I would love to see Tommen be the valonqar but he won't, because of the order of Maggy's prophecy.

 

[Reivax26]

I had forgotten about Victarion's hand until you mentioned that. Maybe Jaime can get his back and kill Cersei with it. It would be nice.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Why can't Jaime simply use a golden hand?