For those who write fiction with warrior characters, do you have any trends in the way the top guys are portrayed? I have a variety of worlds with different styles, but in my main novel series the elite warriors tend to be gigantic hulks. Even the girls are this way, the heroine is 6', 240-250 pounds (close to 300 for a while after pregnancy), and she has a female ally who is 6'2, 280-ish and an enemy who is 7', 300. As for the guys the MC's love interest is 6'8, 380 and most of their major male enemies are in the 6'5-7', 250-400 range. It's supposed to be a nod to the Greek epics where all the great heroes are described as huge - anyway that's my quirk, what's yours?
What are your elite warriors like?
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The Ace
Scottish Roman.
The closest I've come to that are the (supposedly) extinct Genewarriors.
Specifically bred more than two millenia before my work is actually set, these seven-foot tall, four-armed, steel-jawed (literally) monsters were bred in an attempt to conquer the known galaxy which almost succeeded.
I basically designed a nightmare to see what would happen.
Specifically bred more than two millenia before my work is actually set, these seven-foot tall, four-armed, steel-jawed (literally) monsters were bred in an attempt to conquer the known galaxy which almost succeeded.
I basically designed a nightmare to see what would happen.
Gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
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I have a mix. For me, I've tried to approach my "elite warriors" as being normal people (though highly trained and competent), but belonging to a special cultural group that are viewed a little in awe by regular people. I've modelled this on other historic "elite" groups that were alternatively lauded, feared, etc. The Hashshashin, Templars, Shaolin, and so on.
Most of my cultures have their own "elite" groups, each with its own unique characteristics and place in both its immediate community and the wider world.
Terrador's "Greycloaks" are the second sons of nobles, professional soldiers who man the fronteir, highly regarded by the commonfolk, but really not much more than regular medieval soldiers.
The hard desert-dwelling "Moh-Shadawahn" are unruly and independent mercenaries in the Samulian armies, universally feared and held in awe by allies and enemies alike. Their name means "Men of the Bitter Salt", and it's said they can't be killed because they give their hearts into the protection of their Shamans before they go into battle.
The "Herum" of the Ardveii continue an unbroken 2,000 year old tradition of warfare; proudly declaring in their name their own frailty.
The "Sadu-lan" of the Glaraheil are reviled by their people as thieves and murderers, but their skill and uncompromising dedication to the Goddess of Vengeance makes them untouchable. To the wronged, to those seeking justice, they are heaven-sent, faceless executioners of the Goddess' wrath.
The Phalagians are armoured knights of the Espallian Church, their namesake the Angel of Divine Vengeance, viewed in utter terror by all who live within the sway of the church. Many a village has burned at their hand, for the slightest infraction.
The Spectre Guard are an ancient, secret order, mindlessly and desperately clinging to preservation of a lost Empire destroyed a thousand years ago, but kept alive behind the impenetrable walls of their mountain fortress Teleportis.
And so on.
Most of my cultures have their own "elite" groups, each with its own unique characteristics and place in both its immediate community and the wider world.
Terrador's "Greycloaks" are the second sons of nobles, professional soldiers who man the fronteir, highly regarded by the commonfolk, but really not much more than regular medieval soldiers.
The hard desert-dwelling "Moh-Shadawahn" are unruly and independent mercenaries in the Samulian armies, universally feared and held in awe by allies and enemies alike. Their name means "Men of the Bitter Salt", and it's said they can't be killed because they give their hearts into the protection of their Shamans before they go into battle.
The "Herum" of the Ardveii continue an unbroken 2,000 year old tradition of warfare; proudly declaring in their name their own frailty.
The "Sadu-lan" of the Glaraheil are reviled by their people as thieves and murderers, but their skill and uncompromising dedication to the Goddess of Vengeance makes them untouchable. To the wronged, to those seeking justice, they are heaven-sent, faceless executioners of the Goddess' wrath.
The Phalagians are armoured knights of the Espallian Church, their namesake the Angel of Divine Vengeance, viewed in utter terror by all who live within the sway of the church. Many a village has burned at their hand, for the slightest infraction.
The Spectre Guard are an ancient, secret order, mindlessly and desperately clinging to preservation of a lost Empire destroyed a thousand years ago, but kept alive behind the impenetrable walls of their mountain fortress Teleportis.
And so on.
AnyaKimlin
Confuddled
Physically no they are as varied as the modern armies. The Divine Warriors that are attached to an element naturally have the physicality associated with their race.
Electro Guards. Robots with a height of 2.5 meters. Flat head, large hands, miniguns attached to arms. Controlled by a single mind.
And of course the four horsemen. Genetically engineered human/cyborg. They are kind of like the penultimate bosses.
And of course the four horsemen. Genetically engineered human/cyborg. They are kind of like the penultimate bosses.
monsterchic
Captain Satanpants
They're normal elves (lithe, tall, etc.), but they look darker (read: look more feral-ish, don't know exactly how to put it) because they're assassins and therefore have more dark stuff going on in their lives. Added to the fact that they're outcasts, because no one wants to piss them off and get killed...
Glisterspeck
Frozen sea axe smith
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My tuskul guards are the abandoned sons of a tribe of warrior women. Brought up in a religious order where the religion is war. Honor bound. Muscled, but not freakishly so. They'd look svelte in a suit, which is how I generally judge if a man's physique is too muscular for my tastes. Of course, they don't wear suits.
They wear sarongs, a sash and a torc, and little else. They carry an ovefast, which is a feared weapon. I won't describe it here. I barely describe it in the book. I want to make a game out of it, let the reader define the ovefast for themselves.
I love the varangian guards of the Byzantine emperors, who carried a weapon generally believed to be a dane axe but about which there is some confusion. I like the ambiguity of it. I don't have to describe the ovefast in action because the tuskuls are largely supporting characters. As with the Byzantine Empire, mine is more a story of intrigue than action.
They wear sarongs, a sash and a torc, and little else. They carry an ovefast, which is a feared weapon. I won't describe it here. I barely describe it in the book. I want to make a game out of it, let the reader define the ovefast for themselves.
I love the varangian guards of the Byzantine emperors, who carried a weapon generally believed to be a dane axe but about which there is some confusion. I like the ambiguity of it. I don't have to describe the ovefast in action because the tuskuls are largely supporting characters. As with the Byzantine Empire, mine is more a story of intrigue than action.
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I could see how this could work in fantasy, where literal size often equals strength, but then again, there's always Agincourt to contend with. And doorways.
In a space setting, the whole Sardaukar thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless you're up against real peasant militias who will run off at the first sign of trouble. Humans - and presumably vaguely similar aliens - are devious creatures, and if you're 9 feet tall and covered in plate armour, they'll probably learn to do the SF equivalent of digging a hole and covering it with sticks. All that genetic engineering is probably too costly to justify itself, but maybe the Glorious Leader is crazy enough to insist on it.
That said, I do have elites, and yes, they're genetically engineered (although they are a spoof). The Praetorians of the Ghast Empire were enormous ant-people, the equivalent of Uruk-hai to normal orcs, and were bigger and better-equipped than usual, largely having bullied the regular soldier ants into giving them all the good stuff. As befitted their mentality, they wore black coats and were covered in skulls. A certain type of human traitor regarded them much as teenage girls regard boy bands.
The human elites were basically commando-types, of extreme skill and variable sanity. They tended to look rather individual (although they were rarely seen before the explosions started) and had a very practical approach to things. They were generally recruited from the military, although anyone who "passed" the psychiatric tests was considered. They regarded the Praetorians as despicable, although good for the trophy wall once properly stuffed.
In a space setting, the whole Sardaukar thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless you're up against real peasant militias who will run off at the first sign of trouble. Humans - and presumably vaguely similar aliens - are devious creatures, and if you're 9 feet tall and covered in plate armour, they'll probably learn to do the SF equivalent of digging a hole and covering it with sticks. All that genetic engineering is probably too costly to justify itself, but maybe the Glorious Leader is crazy enough to insist on it.
That said, I do have elites, and yes, they're genetically engineered (although they are a spoof). The Praetorians of the Ghast Empire were enormous ant-people, the equivalent of Uruk-hai to normal orcs, and were bigger and better-equipped than usual, largely having bullied the regular soldier ants into giving them all the good stuff. As befitted their mentality, they wore black coats and were covered in skulls. A certain type of human traitor regarded them much as teenage girls regard boy bands.
The human elites were basically commando-types, of extreme skill and variable sanity. They tended to look rather individual (although they were rarely seen before the explosions started) and had a very practical approach to things. They were generally recruited from the military, although anyone who "passed" the psychiatric tests was considered. They regarded the Praetorians as despicable, although good for the trophy wall once properly stuffed.
I react to some words in a different way. Particularly once I reach silly hour. So when I read:
I thought
So, if the sarong falls off as they sashay past, do they finish up the torc of the town?
<SFX running quickly for the door>
I thought
So, if the sarong falls off as they sashay past, do they finish up the torc of the town?
<SFX running quickly for the door>
Glisterspeck
Frozen sea axe smith
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I react to some words in a different way. Particularly once I reach silly hour. So when I read:
I thought
So, if the sarong falls off as they sashay past, do they finish up the torc of the town?
<SFX running quickly for the door>
I'm not sure I'm going the exact same place you went, but I think I may have them be known for their... other ovefasts? Whispering coquettes comparing glimpses from when the sash does slip, that sort of thing.
Scotsmen and kilts.
Are you thinking light, floaty material like the Egyptian's sort of sarongs? On a practical note, they might have dress sarongs and battle sarongs. So the fancy ones for guard duty and the practical one for when running into battle/thundering along in a chariot with the wind sweeping everything backwards.
And wombling off thread quite a bit - the ballet scene in "Top Secret". (If you've not seen Top Secret then I'd recommend it for an extremely fast comic film that is silly without being stupid if you get what I mean. An awful lot of visual jokes and mick takes on classic types of movies (spy, western, WW2) plus specific ones (A Team and Blue Lagoon).)
I think technology takes away the need for brute strength - if you look at special forces soldiers, you wouldnt look twice if you saw one walking down the street in civvies, but a muscle bound body builder tends to stand out. I guess it doesnt pay to be bigger and easier to shoot.
The fighting types in the worlds i dream up tend to be mostly normal people, normal mixes. Even the alien races dont have any "special" warrior types that standout beyond their alien features. Although I do like the idea of mechanically enhanced soldiers - internally or externally.
However for fantasy and drama, there is something to be said for the little guy having to face off against the enourmous mass of muscles and armour. I have a few ideas for fantasy worlds and stories and the elite forces always tend be extremely well equipped.. but not necessarily all huge musclebound freaks. The best warriors in ancient times weren't the strongest, they were the best trained and equipped. A lot of the intimidation came from their equipment and discipline, how they presented themselves to their enemies (war paint, war cries, uniform ranks of faceless armour, walls of pikes, marching in order to generate rhythmic sound etc.). I haven't settled on a look for the bad guys yet, but I always tend to imagine them in uniform black armour with red trim, highly trained, highly disciplined and initimadating because of it. But the fantasy worlds I think of dont involve any races other than humans (magic and occasionally demons, but nothing else).
The fighting types in the worlds i dream up tend to be mostly normal people, normal mixes. Even the alien races dont have any "special" warrior types that standout beyond their alien features. Although I do like the idea of mechanically enhanced soldiers - internally or externally.
However for fantasy and drama, there is something to be said for the little guy having to face off against the enourmous mass of muscles and armour. I have a few ideas for fantasy worlds and stories and the elite forces always tend be extremely well equipped.. but not necessarily all huge musclebound freaks. The best warriors in ancient times weren't the strongest, they were the best trained and equipped. A lot of the intimidation came from their equipment and discipline, how they presented themselves to their enemies (war paint, war cries, uniform ranks of faceless armour, walls of pikes, marching in order to generate rhythmic sound etc.). I haven't settled on a look for the bad guys yet, but I always tend to imagine them in uniform black armour with red trim, highly trained, highly disciplined and initimadating because of it. But the fantasy worlds I think of dont involve any races other than humans (magic and occasionally demons, but nothing else).
I'm not sure (about the first bit.) If your having armies using things like swords, bows and arrows, armour, etc... then the training to use the equipment would indeed build up the men into some of the strongest, if not the actual strongest. Generally they were given the best diets to aid this.
Think of all longbowmen that practiced for decades so as they could regulary pull a bow that only very few nowadays have the strength to do. Or Knights coated in plate steel, sappers building fortifications and destroying them. I'd say strength was a prerequisite actually for ancient-to-medieval soldiery.
Wearing armour and carrying packs about is exhausting - you need strength just to function in full battle (even so men in the middle of melees might last 15-20 minutes at best, before having to retire to catch their breath.)
Of course when we then started killing by just pressing a trigger, then things changed.
True, but i said strongest, not strong. They needed to be tough and strong, but just because you had the toughest and strongest warriors, it didnt make them the best.
Agincourt that was mentioned above, is a perfect example. As would be Crecy.
Dissentry ridden, starving soldier + Longbow + bodkin arrowhead (technology) + discipline + training + fewer in number +fightign away from home
Was greater than
Well fed elite knight + heavily armoured + strong + trained + mounted + ill disciplined + huge numbers + fighting on home ground.
Crecy & Agincourt sent shockwaves through Europe and was the first example of a modern professional army Europe had seen since the Roman times. Professional armies didnt need individually the strongest, toughest soldiers, they needed soldiers that worked together with equipment that was almost industrial in its ability to kill large numbers. King Edward waited 5 years to amass the millions of arrows needed for the campaign that resulted in Crecy.
Even in Rome it was the same - legionaires were not the strongest (for example the germanic barbarians prized strength above all) but their equipment, discipline and training made them considerably more effective.
Agincourt that was mentioned above, is a perfect example. As would be Crecy.
Dissentry ridden, starving soldier + Longbow + bodkin arrowhead (technology) + discipline + training + fewer in number +fightign away from home
Was greater than
Well fed elite knight + heavily armoured + strong + trained + mounted + ill disciplined + huge numbers + fighting on home ground.
Crecy & Agincourt sent shockwaves through Europe and was the first example of a modern professional army Europe had seen since the Roman times. Professional armies didnt need individually the strongest, toughest soldiers, they needed soldiers that worked together with equipment that was almost industrial in its ability to kill large numbers. King Edward waited 5 years to amass the millions of arrows needed for the campaign that resulted in Crecy.
Even in Rome it was the same - legionaires were not the strongest (for example the germanic barbarians prized strength above all) but their equipment, discipline and training made them considerably more effective.
We're talking about elites - not who actually was the best
Except no one in the mediveal world would have ever thought of lowly bowmen, even if indeed they had really won the battles, as 'elites'. The English commanders and high born were all men-at-arms and knights - and as was pointed out in the recent program on the hundred years war, when they came back when they dedicated stain glass windows to their victories - there's not a sign of any bowmen riff-raff. It's only now with our modern views that we can be much more objective.
Well, the Roman army actually became more 'germanic' over time - partly because they were relying on auxillaries more and more, but also because they highly admired the germanic warrior. (Perhaps because they had never subdued them.) There is a misconception that every Roman battle was the legions ordered and workmanlike versus the hot heads of berserker crazy barbarians. Yes, it is a factor in their success, but they threw away many battles by going all barbarian (Cannae's a good example, but Julius Caeser had to reign in his centurions who often took foolhardy and rash risks and almost threw away certain victories, just to name two examples)
And of course there was a proper elite unit in the Roman world - the Praetorian Guard - and it became German for a long while. Which kinda proves the point about elites
(I'm sure they were always chosen to be physically imposing too - i.e. the strongest, but I don't know if that is a fact - loyalty was bigger issue for the Emporer I suppose...)
Gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
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The amount of weight combat soldiers carry has actually remained remarkably consistent across the centuries, and may be just the physiological limit of an adult human male. The load-out of a Greek Hoplite, Roman Legionnaire, Medieval Knight, WW2 infantryman, and modern infantryman are all about the same.
Gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
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We're talking about elites - not who actually was the best
I think this is a really good point that bears repeating. "Elite-ness" is more about cultural perception than actual ability. Sometimes the two go together, particularly in militaristic societies heavily involved in warfare, but sometimes the elite-ness comes down to cultural perception and the historic status of the unit rather than their current ability.
A good example is the Household Cavalry of the British Army. They are the personnel bodyguard of the Sovereign, and only the Royal Horse Artillery (with guns) precede them. They are, by any definition, viewed as "elite".
Yet, aside from their additional ceremonial duties, their training is really no different to any other formation reconnaissance regiment in the British Army, and there's really nothing particularly "elite" about them in terms of combat effectiveness.
Are the household cavalry elite? I thought they were somewhat sneered at by the "working" regiments. It's generally considered by the public and the press, that the Marines and the Para's are the best of our fighting units and Marine Commando's, SBS and SAS units as the special forces elite.
I think perhaps in the era of equine cavalry they may have been presented as elite, but i think thats something of a hollow boast now. I guess there are two angles, to the army and top brass maybe they are presented as elite but the public doesnt buy it anymore
The distinction between elite and best is fair and I wasn't really considering that angle
But it's also a point of interest with the english common soldier. To the English hierarchy they were somewhat ignored for their role in the victories, but to the French they were "the devil". I suspect they were more feared by the French, because of their non chivalrous and common nature, an unruley and ungodly mob of peasants, the height of shame to be defeated by. So maybe to a French Knight at the height of the age of chivalry, they gave more fear than expected. To lose to another Knight meant they retained their honour and status and would probably be given quarter for ransome. But to the lose to the rabble.. a higher chance of a painful and uncerimonious death and the loss of their honour. Who knows but interesting to think about the different perspectives.
The Praetorian Guard were also considered elite and well equipped, but much like the household cavalry, sneered out by actual legionaires. I'm pretty sure they were considered to be toy soldiers and ill disciplined brutes who were never seriously expected to fight on a battlefield (did they ever?).
I think perhaps in the era of equine cavalry they may have been presented as elite, but i think thats something of a hollow boast now. I guess there are two angles, to the army and top brass maybe they are presented as elite but the public doesnt buy it anymore
The distinction between elite and best is fair and I wasn't really considering that angle
But it's also a point of interest with the english common soldier. To the English hierarchy they were somewhat ignored for their role in the victories, but to the French they were "the devil". I suspect they were more feared by the French, because of their non chivalrous and common nature, an unruley and ungodly mob of peasants, the height of shame to be defeated by. So maybe to a French Knight at the height of the age of chivalry, they gave more fear than expected. To lose to another Knight meant they retained their honour and status and would probably be given quarter for ransome. But to the lose to the rabble.. a higher chance of a painful and uncerimonious death and the loss of their honour. Who knows but interesting to think about the different perspectives.
The Praetorian Guard were also considered elite and well equipped, but much like the household cavalry, sneered out by actual legionaires. I'm pretty sure they were considered to be toy soldiers and ill disciplined brutes who were never seriously expected to fight on a battlefield (did they ever?).
Off the top of my head I believe they took part in the Dacian campaign and a few others.
With regards to what position they actually had relative to the ordinary grunt, I suppose it depends on the time period. For example, near the start of their formation, being made a Praetorian was an honour only given to veterans in reward for excellent service elsewhere, but of course as they exerted power and became more corrupt am sure it generated resentment with the PBI.
Glisterspeck
Frozen sea axe smith
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Scotsmen and kilts.
Are you thinking light, floaty material like the Egyptian's sort of sarongs? On a practical note, they might have dress sarongs and battle sarongs. So the fancy ones for guard duty and the practical one for when running into battle/thundering along in a chariot with the wind sweeping everything backwards.
And wombling off thread quite a bit - the ballet scene in "Top Secret". (If you've not seen Top Secret then I'd recommend it for an extremely fast comic film that is silly without being stupid if you get what I mean. An awful lot of visual jokes and mick takes on classic types of movies (spy, western, WW2) plus specific ones (A Team and Blue Lagoon).)
I'm thinking more the patterned sort from Bangladesh or Indonesia. So pretty light and long. They're a late bronze age/early iron age civilization.
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