What if...

juleska

The North remembers
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
879
The Imp posted the following comments on the Publishing Dates for TWOW thread:

If aSoIaF never gets finished so be it. Speaking obviously just for myself, i'd rather have what IS published be consistent with the rest of the series than have something that was rushed out and leaves me feeling cheated or unsatisfied.

This left me wondering...

What if the series never gets finished?

--or--

What if you don't get answers to your most burning questions?

We can be assured that we won't have ALL our questions answered, I think. There are some questions I'd like to have answered, some I feel like I need to have answered, and some mild curiosities / SWAGs that I don't really care about.

For me, if the series never gets finished by GRRM, I think we've got enough meat left on the bone for people like us to speculate freely and possibly produce some fanfic that would be satisfying enough for me. I think that is actually a better scenario than the possibility of the series being completed, and my "need to have" questions being left utterly untouched.

Dunno, what do you guys think?
 
The Imp posted the following comments on the Publishing Dates for TWOW thread:



This left me wondering...

What if the series never gets finished?

--or--

What if you don't get answers to your most burning questions?

We can be assured that we won't have ALL our questions answered, I think. There are some questions I'd like to have answered, some I feel like I need to have answered, and some mild curiosities / SWAGs that I don't really care about.

For me, if the series never gets finished by GRRM, I think we've got enough meat left on the bone for people like us to speculate freely and possibly produce some fanfic that would be satisfying enough for me. I think that is actually a better scenario than the possibility of the series being completed, and my "need to have" questions being left utterly untouched.

Dunno, what do you guys think?

I'm going to use the TV series "Lost" as an example, and I'm going to try to speak about it in general terms, but if you haven't watched the series and plan to, there MIGHT be spoilers below

Lost ran for 6 seasons and the story was extremely complicated, even at the beginning, and grew almost exponentially more complicated as the series progressed. by the end of the 6th and final season, there were clearly going to be many plot lines which the writers either didn't have time to complete, or, they weren't able to come up with good answers/conclusions to them. There were important questions that were left unanswered, "puzzles" that weren't solved, and even a certain amount of ambiguity in the final minutes of the show. Some people loved the nding, but many people hated it, i think mainly becuase they had an expectation that all of their questions would be answered, and they weren't.

For me, I thought the ending was wonderful, and I realize in talking about this wonderful program that I didn't expect everything to be tied up in a neat package at the end.----

I'm not sure that "it" ever should be. There are obviously some threads that GRRM HAS to conclude in a manner that is consistent with the rest of the series. there are others that won't matter nearly as much. I suppose that each reader's sense of satisfaction will be in large part related to how that individual's burning questions were answered. GRRM probably HAS to finish off everything below, and maybe more.

I made a thread once about outstanding plot lines, but I don't have time to dig it up, so i'm posting someone else's :D



HUGE aSoIaF SPOLIERS BELOW














The North:
  • Stannis vs. Boltons-Freys: “the North Remembers”, the Battle of Winterfell, Asha + Theon Greyjoy, Mance Rayder, the Iron Bank, Davos going to Skagos, Davos having to get Rickon back from Skagos, the North rallying under Rickon
  • The Wall: Jon’s ‘death’ and possible resurrection, Queen’s Men vs Wildings vs Night’s Watch, Melisandre’s role, the Others’ invasion, possible fall of the Wall
  • Bran: his increasing power, partnership with Bloodraven, ‘Coldhands’, fates of Jojen + Meera + Hodor, his ability to see the past with Weirwoods, his use against the Others
  • Huge fight against the Others
  • HOWLAND REED
The Riverlands:
  • Post-war fighting: guerrilla warfare vs House Frey, the BWB (Gendry, Undead Cat, Thoros), Jaime and Brienne confronting the BWB, location of the Blackfish, Nymeria’s wolfpack
The Vale:
  • Littlefinger and Sansa: LF vs. Lords Declarant over the Vale, Robert Arryn, Alayne revealed as Sansa, Sansa possibly marrying Harry the Heir, Sansa’s possible actions with the armies of the Vale, LF’s creepy crush on Sansa
The Reach:
  • Ironborn threat: their naval raids, possible battles against the Tyrells and Redwynes
  • The Citadel: Sam’s training and investigating, Jaqen (‘Pate’) doing something for the FM, Sarella Sand in disguise, the Maesters’ goals
  • Aegon VI/Blackfyre’s allies: vassal Houses (Tarly, Hightower, Rowan) possibly being Aegon’s ‘friends in the Reach’ and defecting
The Stormlands:
  • Aegon VI/Blackfyre’s campaign: JonCon and the GC raising an army in Storm’s End, fight against the Iron Throne, reaction to ‘Aegon Targaryen’
Crownlands:
  • Political scheming: Cersei’s Trial, Margaery’s Trial, weakening of Lannister-Tyrell Alliance, Varys’ machinations, Loras’ fate, the influence of the powerful Faith, fight against Aegon, defections to Aegon, Robert Strong’s role, “Valonqar Prophecy” (Myrcella + Tommen + Cersei dying), Nymeria + Tyene Sand in KL.
Dorne:
  • Balon Swann and Obara’s Hunt for Darkstar
  • Myrcella
  • Reaction to Quentyn’s death
  • Will Dorne declare and fight for Aegon? Will Arianne marry Aegon?
Meereen:
  • Battle of Meereen, with: Moqorro, Victarion, Tyrion, Jorah, Barristan, and a ton of ******* factions
  • Meereenese scheming: all the ******* Harzoos, plus the Harpy
  • Dani and Drogon with Jhaqo’s Khalasar, her future
  • Dani somehow getting to Westeros (will she win the Throne, fight the Others, take another husband?)
Ironborn:
  • Victarion vs Euron: what will happen with the Dragon Horn, will there be a confrontation between Victarion and Euron, will either be able to bind dragons?
  • Aeron Damphair
Braavos:
  • Arya and her Faceless Man training
  • Sam passing thru…

In addition to what this person listed, we need to know about Arya/Nymeria, Osha and Rickon, just to name a couple. i'll try to find my post later.

In short, i think that GRRM has to resolve the main plot lines because they aren't just questions, they are part of the fabric of the story. referring back to Lost for a second, it doesn't REALLY matter how Desmond is able to survive extreme amounts of electro-magnetic energy. back to aSoIaF, it DOES matter if we never find out the origin of the Great Other. I think i'd rather the series go uncompleted than to have it end badly because GRRM had to rush the last book, for whatever reason. i'd rather have unanswered questions and not have an ending than have an incomplete ending, so i guess i'm saying that TV is different than books. if THAT'S true, we may get our ending anyway, in the form of the TV show, and the missing details won't matter because many of them won't be given in the first place. :D
 
Well that's basically my point....there's no way all of that listed there (and so much more) will ever be completely resolved by story's end. That's not how life works anyway, who has all their loose ends tied up and dark secrets revealed and burning questions answered when they lay down to die?

So of all the things you listed there and more that I would include, About 1/3 are "must know" for me, 1/3 are "would like to know" and 1/3 are "meh". At one point in time I considered the question of Jon Snow's parentage a "must know" for me, but it's on the fence between "must" and "would like" now, leaning towards the latter. But the Arya-Nymeria question is one that, for me, must be answered. Or else. *shakes fist at GRRM*

;)
 
Well that's basically my point....there's no way all of that listed there (and so much more) will ever be completely resolved by story's end. That's not how life works anyway, who has all their loose ends tied up and dark secrets revealed and burning questions answered when they lay down to die?

So of all the things you listed there and more that I would include, About 1/3 are "must know" for me, 1/3 are "would like to know" and 1/3 are "meh". At one point in time I considered the question of Jon Snow's parentage a "must know" for me, but it's on the fence between "must" and "would like" now, leaning towards the latter. But the Arya-Nymeria question is one that, for me, must be answered. Or else. *shakes fist at GRRM*

;)

Over the course of the series, there are certain things that GRRM has teased us with that HAVE to be answered. WHile it may or may not be important to the end of the story, i absolutely have to know Jon's true parentage. Actually, there is very little on the list that I posted that I don't consider to be "must resolved'. I suppose that GRRM could do a really prefunctory job with Dorne and I wouldn't care too much, but other than that..................?
 
As I was reading jules' OP, my mind immediately went to LOST as an example before I even read Imp's post. I'd like to say great minds think alike, but that'd be an insult to Imp.

I think LOST is a great example, not just because of the continuing enigmas nor the journey to the end, but because I detested the final ten minutes of LOST. If there had been a power outage in my neighborhood just as the last scenes were about to commence, I'd be a happier man today. After experiencing such a disappointing ending to a great beginning, I've learned to just enjoy what the story that I have in my hands.

Don't be so eager to get closure... you may not like where GRRM takes it. He's warned us that it will be bittersweet.

Continued tension is a major part of everyone's enjoyment of ASOIAF.... We don't know what is going to happen and we all have our hopes. If we never get the ending, then we can all continue to enjoy those hopes for our favorite characters... In fact, we can go one step further and believe that the endings we want have actually occurred. We'll get to write our own end to ASOIAF... and each of us can be satisfied with the result.

How long have each of you been enjoying the suspense in ASOIAF? I started in September 2000. I devoured The Lord of the Rings when I was thirteen. The suspense lasted for a month, at most. I can never forget (un-know, not anticipate) which villains die, which heroes live, who gets the girls, and which characters find peace. The tension is gone. As soon as you finish the last book of ASOIAF, the tension will be gone never to return. Never.

If GRRM does not finish ASOIAF, then I'll get to right about Stannis, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Jon all being half-siblings! Another crackpot theory for Boaz!!!!

Seriously... I urge you not to put more emphasis on the end than on the present state of the story. The journey is the story... the end is not the story.

I find it hard to believe, as an upper middle-class, caucasian American male (demanding of instant gratification and expecting of all answers), that I am counseling patience.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Don't count your chickens before they've hatched. Don't cry over milk that may or may not be spilled in five to ten years.
 
For me, I want AN end. Whatever end it is that GRRM wants to give us. I just hope that GRRM is the one that gives it to us, not the show or another writer. If the series never got finished, I think I would be pretty disappointed. I need closure...of some kind. :) I know not all the threads and storylines will be answered, and I don't think they should be. Some things can be left for the reader to ponder about. I may have to read back through Imp's list above, but as I'm sitting here writing this, the two things I really would like to know is does Dany make it to Westeros, and what happens then, and what happened to Jon.


(By the way, how much do the people handling the show know? Do they know ultimately how it will end? if this is discussed in another thread, someone can just point me in the direction.
 
As I was reading jules' OP, my mind immediately went to LOST as an example before I even read Imp's post. I'd like to say great minds think alike, but that'd be an insult to Imp.

I think LOST is a great example, not just because of the continuing enigmas nor the journey to the end, but because I detested the final ten minutes of LOST. If there had been a power outage in my neighborhood just as the last scenes were about to commence, I'd be a happier man today. After experiencing such a disappointing ending to a great beginning, I've learned to just enjoy what the story that I have in my hands.

Don't be so eager to get closure... you may not like where GRRM takes it. He's warned us that it will be bittersweet.

Continued tension is a major part of everyone's enjoyment of ASOIAF.... We don't know what is going to happen and we all have our hopes. If we never get the ending, then we can all continue to enjoy those hopes for our favorite characters... In fact, we can go one step further and believe that the endings we want have actually occurred. We'll get to write our own end to ASOIAF... and each of us can be satisfied with the result.

How long have each of you been enjoying the suspense in ASOIAF? I started in September 2000. I devoured The Lord of the Rings when I was thirteen. The suspense lasted for a month, at most. I can never forget (un-know, not anticipate) which villains die, which heroes live, who gets the girls, and which characters find peace. The tension is gone. As soon as you finish the last book of ASOIAF, the tension will be gone never to return. Never.

If GRRM does not finish ASOIAF, then I'll get to right about Stannis, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Jon all being half-siblings! Another crackpot theory for Boaz!!!!

Seriously... I urge you not to put more emphasis on the end than on the present state of the story. The journey is the story... the end is not the story.

I find it hard to believe, as an upper middle-class, caucasian American male (demanding of instant gratification and expecting of all answers), that I am counseling patience.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Don't count your chickens before they've hatched. Don't cry over milk that may or may not be spilled in five to ten years.

your modesty is commendable, but I can only hope to bask in your brilliance. Serious

So Boaz, I'm really interested in hearing why you hated the last 10 minutes so much. Either a PM or a post here would be greatly appreciated.
 
I want him to finish it himself. The reason being that way people won't be able to pose the hypothetical of: "What would it have been like if GRRM had been able to finish it before he passed, instead of Blah Blah. Would it have been different?"

Questions like that could kill the series, in my opinion. I just wish he would quit doing all the random crap about going to the different conventions, and actually go somewhere and write the rest of the story. Sure some people would be a little upset about not getting to see him at the GoT booth at Comiccon, but they would be a lot more upset if he didn't finish the series and it ended up being finished by a hack who butchers the ending.

My 2 cents
 
Dear Friends,

I'm responding to Imp's request of my reasons for disliking LOST. I'm doing it here instead of a PM because I feel that it bears upon the relevancy of the topic... What if we don't get an end to ASOIAF?

Imp, to begin, let me say that this is in no way, shape, or form, meant to be critical of you or your judgement. You are one of my favorite posters over my years on the Chrons. I respect your opinions and your right to like or dislike art even more than I respect your incredible phonographic memory. (Is phonographic a word?)

Okay... Did you see A Christmas Story? Of course... every American has. You recall the scene where Ralph uses his secret decoder ring? Be sure to drink your Ovaltine. Ralph says in disbelief, "A crummy commercial?" He'd never listen to Little Orphan Annie with wonder and amazement after he learned that it was all about money and not art nor storytelling.

The last ten minutes, or so, of LOST was like that for me. Six seasons of the lives of those survivors was not about them, their sturggles, their choices, nor their hopes. It was a six year commercial for a universal consciousness religion of I'm okay, you're okay, but he's not okay because he never found love in this life and the other guy's not okay either because he's not enlightened enough yet... someday he might be, but he'll just wander in the green gardens around the purgatory church until he decides to be okay.

You know I do like surprises and plot twists. In fact, if a story does not have good twists and turns, then it may not ever hold my attention. But... I detest ulterior motives and the finale of LOST was one big bait and switch.

You know I'm a Christian, right? But I don't think that anyone should ever try and dupe a person to accept Christianity. Hidden agendas in the name of God are still underhanded and manipulative.

I love the Christian themes that I see all through Tolkien's and Lewis' works. I love ASOIAF even though I'm certain that GRRM is not, nor has ever been, a Christian. I like good stories wherever they come from. I devoured mythology as a kid... Greek, Egyptian, Persian, Norse, Celtic, Chinese. But in all those stories, I could see the authors building religious, cultural, and social themes from the beginning.

Egyptian concepts of the afterlife were never just snuck in in the last few paragraphs. The same is true of Greek and Norse mythology as well. No where do I find that Lewis or Tolkien slipped in Christian thought just to grab the reader in the last chapter. GRRM has been up front about his concerns of organized national religions.

Intentional dishonesty in theology angers me.

I don't know where in LOST I was supposed to know that they were all dead and in purgatory. And what did they do in their purgatory or their second life? What were they supposed to accomplish? Was Jack a saint? No, he was often selfish. Did Sawyer and Sayid really atone for their sins? No, they ended up killing lots of people. But they got into some peaceful nirvana without a god... but Ben was deemed unfit. Was Jack less selfish than Ben? Were Sayid and Sawyer less violent than Ben?

Why was Michael kept out? At least he had better excuses than Kate, Sawyer, and Lock for his behavior. Michael was trying to rescue Walt. Michael made horrible choices, but they were not from selfishness or delusions of grandeur like Lock.

And then there was the statement that you don't get to heaven without being in love. I have not seen the ending since it originally aired, but my memory was that nearly everyone in that chapel at the end was paired. Lock was the only exception that I remember. Where was Walt?

The ending proclaimed that it did not matter what you did or why you did it. The only requirements for paradise were that you had a great romantic love in your second life/purgatory experience. The ending told us that it did not matter how you lived, what you did to other people, or even had any inkling of a relationship with anything divine to get to heaven. Everyone will move on to the same place eventually... even Ben. You just have to accept fate... in the second life because what you did in the first life didn't mean a damn thing! Whiskey tango foxtrot!

Slipping a bad eschatological ending to a thrilling, suspenseful, mysterious adventure story was a non sequitur because there was no reference to this afterlife in the first 99.99% of the show. That'e either atrocious writing (which I refuse to believe given the phenomenal first season) or a hidden agenda. I hate hidden agendas.

And so... if we do not get an end to ASOIAF, I'll be fine because I learned to enjoy the process of just thinking about the story as it unfolds... to savor each morsel of each course.... and if I don't get dessert, I'll still be happy.

If you disagree with my assessment, please respond...

Edit:

Reivax, I, for one, do not consider GRRM's attending of conventions as a waste of his time. Nor do I begrudge him petting his cats. I think chatting on the phone with his friends is time well spent. I hope he fits in more football games in person next year instead of just watching them on TV. I also believe that he should take more frequent and longer walks with his wife. Chaining him to a desk would most likely turn him into "a hack who butchers the ending."

I do not believe that GRRM owes me anything more than what I've already bought. A ten dollar paperback does not make him my personal slave. If he wakes up tomorrow morning and decides that he's done with ASOIAF, that he's giving HBO's money back, that he's retiring to Bora Bora to become a tanned and alcoholic gerbil rancher, then I fully support his right to do so.

I hope he lives his life and does not acutely feel burdened by shame from people he's never met.
 
Last edited:
Beautifully said, Boaz. :)

For the record, I'm not particularly hung up on having an ending. I want to read the series through to its intended completion, but I won't feel cheated if for some reason utterly beyond my control I don't get there. I will feel cheated if none of the important questions are answered, but I don't expect that to be the case. Like you, I have immensely enjoyed what we have been given, and will treasure it always.
 
hear, hear!

I first seen the book late 2010 but never get to start devouring it as I was busy with my studies and with graduating college... Like most graders, I was an avid fan of HP in my teens and learned to wait for the Deathly Hallows. It was an adventure waiting for Rowling to furnish her obra maestra. I even dreamed that Deathly Hallows would have a predominant orange cover a year before it was released. I know I'm too young but I've learned patience years ago though I can't help but feel anxious for the next installment. I would demand answers. I would demand closure...but I would prefer to wait rather than be served third-class crap. I've watched Lost but I did not watch the last season. Maybe I will in the future or maybe I won't.
 
I think theres a natural question that follows, and thats if GRRM is not able to finish the series, which author, if any, would you want given the task (i.e. burden)?

Of course I hope he does finish it, and has many more years of happiness and success, but hypothetically speaking.
 
Boaz

I so much appreciate you taking the time for such a thoughtful, insightful and detailed response. Unforuntately, I have to disagree with a few of the points you made, or, at the very least offer a different conclusion.

First and foremost, I think the last 10 minutes have to be viewed multi-religiously, rather than through the lens of any one particular religion. The writers/producers tell you that as soon as you get into the Chapel when we see this image

LOSTSideaysStainedGlassWindow_thumb.png



I think that the message that Lost was sending was one that was very similar to the one in Cloud Atlas, which was one of my favorite films in a long time. I won't say more about that for fear of Cloud Atlas spoilers, but I can elaborate in another post. Right now, partially due to time contraints and partially due to not wanting to reinvent the wheel, I'm going to post 2 pieces that describe how i feel about the Lost ending

This was (supposedly) submitted by a writer from the Bad Robot team

First … The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people’s heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a “Protector”. Jacob wasn’t the first, Hurley won’t be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him — even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.
Thus began Jacob’s plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn’t do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn’t take a more active role, then his plan would never work.
Enter Dharma — which I’m not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by “corrupting” Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben’s “off-island” activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the “Others” killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that’s what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn’t do for himself.
Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB’s corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That’s a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still … Dharma’s purpose is not “pointless” or even vague. Hell, it’s pretty blantent.
Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his “candidates” (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of “candidates” through the decades and letting them “choose” which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn’t. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector — I know that’s how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won’t answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.
In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he’d always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we’ll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on …
Now…
Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least — because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer’s room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we’re all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it’s not exactly the best word). But these people we’re linked to are with us duing “the most important moments of our lives” as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It’s loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.
The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this “sideways” world where they exist in purgatory until they are “awakened” and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show’s concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own “Sideways” purgatory with their “soulmates” throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That’s a beautiful notion. Even if you aren’t religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.
It’s a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events — not JUST because of Jacob. But because that’s what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith — and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.
How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that’s THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.
But the writer’s took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways “purgatory” with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn’t allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died — some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley’s case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are “awakened” and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.
They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren’t in the chuch — basically everyone who wasn’t in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here’s where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It’s possible that those links aren’t people from the island but from their other life (Anna’s parnter, the guy she shot — Roussou’s husband, etc etc).
A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn’t go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can’t move on yet because he hasn’t connected with the people he needs to. It’s going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley’s number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It’s really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.
But, from a more “behind the scenes” note: the reason Ben’s not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn’t believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It’s pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church — but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church … and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder — the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ’s ending. And they kept it.
For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I’ve been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I’ve loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.
In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don’t touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story — even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.


now for the next one






The End of Lost: Death, Dharma & the Dao


written by Michael Carmichael


Six years ago, the most compelling series in the history of television began after a plane crash when Jack Shephard opened his eye in a bamboo forest on a Pacific island to see a dog called Vincent running towards him. On Sunday, this most compulsive series in television history ended with Jack Shephard closing his eye in the same bamboo forest with Vincent next to him. This epic is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. The following is one single, simple solution to the series.
Unbeknown to billions of viewers, the writers of Lost inundated us with an epic predicated on eastern philosophy. It now seems likely that many in the huge American audience will repudiate the series as a brilliant and fascinating piece of fantastic hokum, while the inhabitants of other older and wiser cultures will embrace Lost as one the most powerful metaphors to have emerged from the turbulent nausea typical of Hollywood. It will seem to them almost as though a miracle has occurred -- in a windswept wilderness a vast pavilion filled with chimpanzees hacking away randomly at computers has created -- at long, long last, a masterpiece of post-modern psychodrama. But the truth is always stranger than fiction.
All was revealed in the ultimate scene of the finale, "The End," broadcast to expectant millions on Sunday.
In the same bamboo forest, the protagonist, Jack Shephard, suffering a mortal wound and lying on the ground near death, smiles as Vincent the dog comes up to him and a jet bearing six survivors soars overhead. Then he closes his eye and dies happily. The hero becomes a relic close to the now-ancient and abandoned wreckage of the crashed plane that placed him and a huge cast of characters on the mysterious island. This ending is a gripping replication of the opening scene of the pilot episode of Lost, when Jack opens his eye after suffering through the crash of Oceanic 815 to see Vincent running towards him in the bamboo forest. The circle closes over the hero as he fulfills his final task on the Island.
We now know that the entire series of Lost takes place in the flickering moments between Jack Shephard opening his eye in the bamboo forest and closing it in the last scene of the finale, when all of the passengers are suspended in the bardo, the intermediate state between life and death.
All of the gripping psychodrama of the past six years took place in the mind compressed into the twinkling of an eye of the wounded hero. The hero resolves his dharma, his duty to the universe, in a vast psychic collision with the confused minds of the other passengers aboard the doomed flight and a broader cast of supporting characters drawn from their lives. The island is now revealed as the dao -- the natural platform of reality where humanity resolves her duty to dharma.
We now see Jack Shephard as the most compassionate character in the epic. Filled to the brim with -- and motivated solely by -- his compassion, Jack sacrifices everything to heal, save, and minister unto others. Jack alone amongst the cast of admirable characters derives virtually every single syllable of motivation in his psyche from compassion. Selfless to the end, Jack contrasts with every other character in their infinite degrees of selfishness. As the most highly evolved psyche of the series, Jack could only sacrifice himself to become the ultimate martyr of the cult of Lost.
Much will be written about Lost, but little will be relevant. Sad to say, but few western film critics are even aware of the existence of eastern philosophies that are far too frequently relegated to the realms of religion. Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism and Sufism are far more than the cruder religious dogmas and fundamentalisms familiar to American and European audiences. Ancient cultures encompass philosophies steeped in scientific theories of consciousness that are far in advance of current western approaches to the mind and its brain.
In the shattering aftermath of the end of Lost, the overwhelming tendency will be to dumb down its meaning to the level of mere western entertainment. Lost deserves to be understood as an epic -- an infinite interlocking series of trilogies and operas articulating the transformations of consciousness through the processes of death.
Death is central to all world religions. Lao Tzu, the Buddha, and Chogyam Trungpa, the iconoclastic founder of the Naropa Institute, and countless other eastern philosophers have investigated and understood the cognitive phenomenology of death. Millennia ago, ancient philosophers discovered that the transformations of perception and consciousness at the time of death go far beyond the later dumbed-down and doctrinaire Judeo-Christian models of paradise.
America, the infantile and innocent heartland of the western frontier, is still far from awakening to the perennial lessons of Lost, but the series' mere existence is a positive development meaning so much more than Macbeth's ignorant default to a tale told by an idiot signifying nothing.
 
I guess I am a greedy reader and I just want to know how he is going to end his masterpiece.

I just think it would be a tragedy if he doesn't get to. I could deal with an ending that didn't please me a lot easier than I could deal with no ending at all.
 
I could deal with an ending that didn't please me a lot easier than I could deal with no ending at all.
Reivax, You've summed up your point in one sentence. I admire your ability to be concise. I need to be more like you. But, I happen to feel the opposite.

Which leads me back to LOST and my discourse with Imp.

Imp, great explanation by the supposed writer for Bad Robot. That cleared up a lot that had confused me regarding the plot. I'm not the most intelligent guy and I am not much for watching episodes over and over to figure out the plot. When reading a book, I can flip back and reread (and I do it often)... but when viewing, I tend not to rewind and rewatch. And... I was okay with multiple enigmas in the show. I enjoyed the mysterious supernatural aspects of LOST from the very first episode!

I had no idea the story was going to be more than a gritty Gilligan's Island. But that first night when the they heard that noise and they saw the trees shake, my imagination was captivated that there was a monster on the island. That boldly proclaimed that this was not going to be anything like Gilligan's Island. The smoke monster, the rejuvenating power of the island, and Walt's ability to manipulate reality were enjoyable devices.

In my opinion, the second bit that you posted, written by Michael Carmichael, proves that my feelings about the ending were justified. Carmichael says of the ending,
"Unbeknown to billions of viewers, the writers of Lost inundated us with an epic predicated on eastern philosophy."
He's not talking of the beginning, nor the process. He was thrilled that the writers had fooled everyone for six years and sprang their hidden message in the finale.

So the mystery, the supernatural, and the space-time enigma were all just to get me to a television where I could be enlightened to transcendental eastern philosophies? I'd call that a six year commercial or a hidden agenda.

In boxing, martial arts, chess, or any physical or mental contest, an age old strategy is to get your opponent to concentrat on an apparent threat while the real threat hits him from the side or rear. All's fair in love and war. But this is a story... and it ended up being a religious story. In my opinion, dishonesty in religious debate shows a severe lack of morals for the deceiver.

I'm trying to keep my post relative to the topic of stories' endings... but I cannot let the following remarks pass unchallenged. I'm not going to repudiate his theology, that's a whole other topic for discussion. I just want to continue to reveal his dishonesty.

Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism and Sufism are far more than the cruder religious dogmas and fundamentalisms familiar to American and European audiences. Ancient cultures encompass philosophies steeped in scientific theories of consciousness that are far in advance of current western approaches to the mind and its brain....Millennia ago, ancient philosophers discovered that the transformations of perception and consciousness at the time of death go far beyond the later dumbed-down and doctrinaire Judeo-Christian models of paradise.
Mr. Carmichael needs to understand the words he uses, namely ancient and later. Judeo religious thought, Yahwism if you will, predates Carmichael's ancient religions... except Hinduism. I'd call Hinduism and Yahwism contemporaries. I understand Hinduism has grown and changed over the years. Hinduism is ancient, but it follows on the Vedic religion of the subcontinent. I know Yahwism was not in it's current form thirty-five hundred years ago... it has been systermatized like all major religions. But how can he deride Judeo-Christian concepts of the afterlife as doctrinaire while praising his views as scientific? Does he not know that the scientific method entails empirical and quantifiable evidence? That much was taught at my "infantile and innocent" American school.

I doubt also if Mr. Carmichael is familiar with Chinese religion before the philosophies of Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and Communism. I don't think he knows of the continued impact that very ancient Chinese religions surrounding Shang Di and Huang Di have to this day, nor how the Chinese incorporate folk religions into their philosophies.

If older is better, then why not go all the way back, Mr. Carmichael?

Edit:

Imp, thanks for your time and patience. Hopefully, I've come across fairly clearly. I'm not about to try and proselytize, nor criticize the values of, a religion here. Well, I confess that I did a bit at the beginning of my first post in this thread. Sorry. I wish to be clear and to be respectful.
 
Last edited:
Reivax, You've summed up your point in one sentence. I admire your ability to be concise. I need to be more like you. But, I happen to feel the opposite.

Which leads me back to LOST and my discourse with Imp.

Imp, great explanation by the supposed writer for Bad Robot. That cleared up a lot that had confused me regarding the plot. I'm not the most intelligent guy and I am not much for watching episodes over and over to figure out the plot. When reading a book, I can flip back and reread (and I do it often)... but when viewing, I tend not to rewind and rewatch. And... I was okay with multiple enigmas in the show. I enjoyed the mysterious supernatural aspects of LOST from the very first episode!

I had no idea the story was going to be more than a gritty Gilligan's Island. But that first night when the they heard that noise and they saw the trees shake, my imagination was captivated that there was a monster on the island. That boldly proclaimed that this was not going to be anything like Gilligan's Island. The smoke monster, the rejuvenating power of the island, and Walt's ability to manipulate reality were enjoyable devices.

In my opinion, the second bit that you posted, written by Michael Carmichael, proves that my feelings about the ending were justified. Carmichael says of the ending, He's not talking of the beginning, nor the process. He was thrilled that the writers had fooled everyone for six years and sprang their hidden message in the finale.

So the mystery, the supernatural, and the space-time enigma were all just to get me to a television where I could be enlightened to transcendental eastern philosophies? I'd call that a six year commercial or a hidden agenda.

In boxing, martial arts, chess, or any physical or mental contest, an age old strategy is to get your opponent to concentrat on an apparent threat while the real threat hits him from the side or rear. All's fair in love and war. But this is a story... and it ended up being a religious story. In my opinion, dishonesty in religious debate shows a severe lack of morals for the deceiver.

I'm trying to keep my post relative to the topic of stories' endings... but I cannot let the following remarks pass unchallenged. I'm not going to repudiate his theology, that's a whole other topic for discussion. I just want to continue to reveal his dishonesty.

Mr. Carmichael needs to understand the words he uses, namely ancient and later. Judeo religious thought, Yahwism if you will, predates Carmichael's ancient religions... except Hinduism. I'd call Hinduism and Yahwism contemporaries. I understand Hinduism has grown and changed over the years. Hinduism is ancient, but it follows on the Vedic religion of the subcontinent. I know Yahwism was not in it's current form thirty-five hundred years ago... it has been systermatized like all major religions. But how can he deride Judeo-Christian concepts of the afterlife as doctrinaire while praising his views as scientific? Does he not know that the scientific method entails empirical and quantifiable evidence? That much was taught at my "infantile and innocent" American school.

I doubt also if Mr. Carmichael is familiar with Chinese religion before the philosophies of Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and Communism. I don't think he knows of the continued impact that very ancient Chinese religions surrounding Shang Di and Huang Di have to this day, nor how the Chinese incorporate folk religions into their philosophies.

If older is better, then why not go all the way back, Mr. Carmichael?

Edit:

Imp, thanks for your time and patience. Hopefully, I've come across fairly clearly. I'm not about to try and proselytize, nor criticize the values of, a religion here. Well, I confess that I did a bit at the beginning of my first post in this thread. Sorry. I wish to be clear and to be respectful.

You were clear and very respectful, at least to ME :D

I watched the last episode again, as a good online friend that I used to game with and have never met lent me the entire 6 season collection on DVD :) I then watched the first episode again. I've decided that I will re-watch the series.

When I watched the opening scene of the first episode again it was one of the most powerful viewing experiences I've had in a long time. Close-up of Jack's eye, opening. The bamboo field above him. Vincent running toward him. A bad wound on his side. Just amazing that they were able to close the circle so well and so completely. I get the chills thinking about it.

I don't really practice any one religion, although I was born Jewish and still identify as such. The idea of multiple lives/incarnations had always been fascinating to me, and as it doesn't conflict with anything i strongly beleive in I was "willing" to accept the idea without thinking much about it. I agree with what you said about Carmichael, but that doesn't detract from the way i still feel about the ending. I was sitting there weeping like a baby, although I must admit, I also weeped during the Star trek TNG epsiode where Worf got his honor back. it doesn't take much for me to have the tears flow, and I'm a sucker for a happy or sweet kind of ending. I actually think that it may cloud my judgement when first viewing or reading something.

So I'm going to watch the entire series over again, partially because i want to see if I can tie off any loose ends, but also because I know from many past experiences that when i watch or read something for a second (or third or fourth) time I am able to make connections between things that flew way over my head the first go round. My understanding of complex material is always better after a re-watch or re-read. aSoIaF and inception or two examples.

Boaz, i hope that you now like the ending of lost just a wee bit better :) but I understand where you are coming from. In all honesty, i would have been perfectly happy if the 5th season had ended the show. Maybe not COMPLETELY happy, but it would have been very Sopranoesque :D
 
Wow, how can you love Lost that much.
I couldn't even watch through the first season.
Truly i couldn't care less what was gonna happen to them on that island.
 
Wow, how can you love Lost that much.
I couldn't even watch through the first season.
Truly i couldn't care less what was gonna happen to them on that island.

Then you missed out on what is pretty universally considered to be a great show, but nothing is for everyone. What are some of your favorite series Peeves?
 
I've very much enjoyed the discussion of Lost and people's perspectives and articles.
I grew up liking mythology, too, Boaz, and have many Christian influences--my brother is a priest.:)
However, well after I became a heretic, I got very inspired by Joseph Campbell and looked into Eastern mythologies and although I am by no means an expert, there are lots of clues, if you have that background. If you don't, or find it offensive, I could see it being a surprise and feeling aggravated. I think that is part of the nature of a culture clash. Lots of people didn't like the end to Lost. I don't know, I considered the purgatory aspect early on so I must have had some hints that there was a religious element. Then there is the Dharma initiative, symbols of yin/yang, black in white,and a lot of contracts with faith and science, being a shepard or a leader, way too much for me to keep track of. I am lost about lost.

Just as I was reading one of these articles, I thought of the whole myth of Brahma opening and closing his eyes and relating that to Jack's eye. (see Joseph Campbell) It went totally over my head as I watched the show.

What I didn't like about the last season was how awkward it was to have HD characters portraying semi deities. Smoke, rustling trees and rumour work better, I think, or a big bad eye in the case of Sauron. Spelling out a myth in such a concrete manner can be a little dodgy.

Back to GRRM, I particularly like how he highlights pros and cons of religion. I got very uncomfortable with how Cersei was treated even though I disliked her as a nasty character. I liked the padre who walked with Brienne. Melisandre seems near psychopathic in her fanaticism. There are many examples in the books and I like how he doesn't ignore those influences in a books with such a huge range set in something like the middle ages.
 
I've very much enjoyed the discussion of Lost and people's perspectives and articles.
I grew up liking mythology, too, Boaz, and have many Christian influences--my brother is a priest.:)
However, well after I became a heretic, I got very inspired by Joseph Campbell and looked into Eastern mythologies and although I am by no means an expert, there are lots of clues, if you have that background. If you don't, or find it offensive, I could see it being a surprise and feeling aggravated. I think that is part of the nature of a culture clash. Lots of people didn't like the end to Lost. I don't know, I considered the purgatory aspect early on so I must have had some hints that there was a religious element. Then there is the Dharma initiative, symbols of yin/yang, black in white,and a lot of contracts with faith and science, being a shepard or a leader, way too much for me to keep track of. I am lost about lost.

Just as I was reading one of these articles, I thought of the whole myth of Brahma opening and closing his eyes and relating that to Jack's eye. (see Joseph Campbell) It went totally over my head as I watched the show.

What I didn't like about the last season was how awkward it was to have HD characters portraying semi deities. Smoke, rustling trees and rumour work better, I think, or a big bad eye in the case of Sauron. Spelling out a myth in such a concrete manner can be a little dodgy.

Back to GRRM, I particularly like how he highlights pros and cons of religion. I got very uncomfortable with how Cersei was treated even though I disliked her as a nasty character. I liked the padre who walked with Brienne. Melisandre seems near psychopathic in her fanaticism. There are many examples in the books and I like how he doesn't ignore those influences in a books with such a huge range set in something like the middle ages.

Wonderful post. It's going to be really interesting re-watching the series through the lens of reglious mythology:)
 
Back
Top