Joe Abercrombie's use of Flatbows

[Brian G Turner]

So, Joe Abercrombie often writes about people firing "flatbows".

Here's an example:
http://www.joeabercrombie.com/books/the-heroes/extract/

From this height, the bolts from a heavy flatbow could split their shields and punch through chainmail as easily as a lady’s gown.

That definitely sounds like he's talking about crossbows.

However, I joined an archery group last night and was introduced to a "flatbow".

It is: a normal bow.

Or, what most people would call a normal bow.

So why does JA call "bows" as "flatbows"? Is he really intimating "crossbows", describing bows a bit more interestingly, or did he get mixed up with his terminology?

I'm now feeling a bit confused as to why he'd made the distinction?

 

[Kylara]

Flatbows are basically a one piece bow - about the same length as a longbow, but instead of being rounded like a longbow it is flat, giving a rectangular cross-section. So it's a powerful bow, much like an English longbow, but it can be made out of more types of wood.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'normal bow' - if you mean a recurve bow, then no a flatbow is not similar - a recurve has 3 parts - the riser, and two limbs. the poundage on the limbs gives the bow a higher/lower draw weight (ie harder/easier to pull back). If you mean a compound bow, then it is totally dissimilar (compounds are the ones with all the wheels). If you mean a longbow then yes, it is similar.

I'm not sure why he calls the arrows bolts though, it could be an affectation or he could be meaning a very specific type of arrow which is pretty much a massive bolt...

 

[Brian G Turner]

What I mean is that - to myself - if I was called to imagine a standard bow, it would not look like a recurve bow - it would look flat. If it was a recurve bow, it would have very little curve. I would expect something to be described explicitly as a recurve or composite to not look flat.

I don't know if it's just me - perhaps I've spent too much time with my head in "longbows", which I'd generally taken to be longer and more powerful versions of "normal bows", ie, same shape, but longer and with stronger materials.

And, indeed, he mentions "bolts", so it sounds again like a crossbow, by the description of the power and projectile used.

 

[Kylara]

Mmm his use of 'bolt' is odd...I think what he might mean is a large thick arrow with perhaps a broadhead tip - a sort of scaled up bolt...but normally bolts do mean crossbow...flatbows are the "american longbow" basically just flat instead of being a round shape all the way down. Recurve bows (especially modern metal ones!) don't really look much like longbows, but are still very powerful. Someone I shoot with has to use a special target because his bow is so powerful, and another has a horse bow, which is smaller than my bow (which is small!) and has an incredibly heavy poundage which means a lot of force.

Longbows don't look flat though, they are more rounded than flatbows...I think the bows you are thinking of as normal are possibly field bows or horse bows.

Clickers have some longbows and flatbows and other traditional bows in their bow section (here: http://www.clickersarchery.co.uk/catalogue.php?search_category=1267 )

 

[Vertigo]

I agree with you Brian, from his description it sounds like he is describing a crossbow. A flat bow or a long bow would not have it's arrows referred to as bolts and it is unlikely, even shooting down on someone, that a flatbow arrow would pierce both shield and then chain mail. Chain mail is a pretty effective stopper for arrows. A crossbow however might.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Longbows don't look flat though, they are more rounded than flatbows...I think the bows you are thinking of as normal are possibly field bows or horse bows.

Hard to explain what I mean, so this picture may help. These are what I see as a "traditional" bow form in period settings, unless explicitly stated otherwise.

To myself, the longbow and American Flatbow are specialised forms in these shapes.

Either way, though, nothing like a crossbow!

 

[Vertigo]

Well there's quite a lot of variation in on that page. I can see longbows, flatbows and recurves on that page (even a crossbow lower down). As Kylara says the longbow was essentially an English/British form. The flatbow was I think mostly used in America, and was the traditional American native bow (I think), but it may also have been the normal form of the medieval bow on the continent (not so sure of that one)*. Recurves originate in the East (Asia first I think) and are considerably more powerful, for the same size and weight, than either of the other two. To spot a recurve the centre of the bow curves in the normal way towards the archer and the limbs or tips of the bow curve in the opposite way; away from the archer. Composite are a purely modern invention.

In terms of power a 30-40lb modern recurve will cast an arrow around the same distance as a 70-100lb longbow. The increased range is due to the speed of movement of the limbs on release. Longbow limbs are very sluggish compared to recurves using modern laminate techniques and were also sluggish compared to ancient recurves. Essentially the speed the arrow leaves the bow is dependant upon both the draw weight and the speed of response of the limbs.

*There were some images on that page from a German medieval festival, where they were definitely using flat bows, so maybe that was the traditional bow shape in medieval Europe. As Kylara says the flat bow has a rectangular cross-section whereas the longbow has a D shaped cross-section. I believe that D cross-section allowed the bow to be built with a much greater draw weight without breaking.

 

[Joe Abercrombie]

Yeah, I meant crossbow.

It was my thinking that Europeans call it a crossbow partly because the cross is such an important symbol for them. In the absence of the christian cross as a symbol, it didn't seem to me that a crossbow was particularly cross-like, and therefore that a society in which christianity didn't exist might have found a different descriptor. Hence flatbow.

I actually wasn't aware at the time of the existence of the thing that we technically call a flatbow, that is where the limb of the bow is flattened in cross section, rather than d-shaped as in a longbow.

I didn't realise Styria is an actual part of Austria either.

Ooops.

Mind you I don't think either of those are necessarily such a big deal. Not that many people have heard of a flatbow. Or Styria either, sadly...

Oh, and on firing a bow. A bow is not fired, it is shot. I made that mistake somewhere in the trilogy as well...

 

[Boneman]

Damn those Woody Allen films where he used to turn to the author/professor to clarify a point he was arguing... I always read a flatbow as a crossbow, but have no idea why. Bernie! The Bolt!

 

[Brian G Turner]

Cheers for the reply, Joe, and nice to see you back.

Yeah, I meant crossbow.

It was my thinking that Europeans call it a crossbow partly because the cross is such an important symbol for them. In the absence of the christian cross as a symbol, it didn't seem to me that a crossbow was particularly cross-like, and therefore that a society in which christianity didn't exist might have found a different descriptor. Hence flatbow.

I'd always thought you'd meant crossbows, hence the confusion at the term being used last night. Your reasoning makes sense, too.

Can't believe I fell for saying "fire" in the original post. Well, I've only just started archery.

Some nice rants on bows here, and the rest of his vidoes are great to watch as well:

 

[J-WO]

Dammit. I was gonna talk about the union having no reference to Christianity and thus calling a crossbow a flatbow (it's a more obvious name for it if you were to name it without cultural influence) but then the bloody author did it for me!

 

[nubins]

I was gonna say it was definitely a crossbow because in The Heroes, there is a scene where Sgt Gunny is cranking his flatbow after shooting it and there is talk of triggers to fire them.. you dont crank a bow or shoot them with a trigger.. but.. the author stepped in and ruined my thunder

It's interesting though as I would never have thought of renaming a crossbow because of the lack of christianity.. shows the level of detail authors have to go to sometimes!