Fantasy - more sword fights less magic

[RichF]

Hello everyone,

I've just caught up with latest episode of Game of Thrones (I'll admit now that I have not yet read the books), and I'm surprised to say I'm really enjoying it. I say this because I've mostly stuck to science fiction books as I often find they offer more realistic scenarios, than the typical fantasy novel, that I can believe in. Having said that the politics and sword fights in GoT have interested me and the magic, so far, has been kept to a minimum.

I was wondering if someone could recommend any other fantasy novels that have a focus on politics and action (preferably middle ages)? I don't know if gritty is the right word. Or am I looking in the wrong place, should I be looking towards the historical fiction subgenre? I have been recommended Joe Abercrombie before, but would like some other opinions...

 

[ratsy]

I would say Abercrombie would be the perfect place to start. It has just the right amount of everything. His books draw me in like no other.

 

[HoopyFrood]

The political intrigue was what I liked the most about the books of A Song of Ice and Fire (especially Game of Thrones). I was miffed when dragons and magic started appearing in larger chunks.

From what I can remember, there's not a great deal in the way of magic and spells in Scott Lynch's Gentlemen ******* series (more alchemy and the like). But it's the setting and the people that are more awesome -- more Italian Renaissance, very colourful and vibrant, and full of conpeople and dodgy dealings. Gritty at times, hilarious at others.

 

[Mouse]

Robin Hobb maybe.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Having said that the politics and sword fights in GoT have interested me and the magic, so far, has been kept to a minimum.

Fantasy has been going through something of a renaissance over the past ten years or so.

If you like the TV series, would certainly recommend George R R Martin Game of Thrones (the novel!).

For other authors: Joe Abercrombie Best Served Cold is excellent as a standalone and a great introduction to his world.

For something different, Scott Lynch Lies of Locke Lamora I'd describe as "Pulp Fiction Renaissance fantasy".

The second two are low magic to the point of it barely being present, but a lot of focus on character.

Welcome to New Fantasy.

 

[Pyan]

Or if you'd like to try Old Fantasy, I can recommend Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar books, starring (if that's the word) Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...cIhLdGC__yL53oqze_8Eb2A&bvm=bv.44697112,d.bGE

 

[Heather Myst]

Rich,

I would suggest The Second Sons trilogy by Jennifer Fallon. It features a hero who solves his problems with his brain instead of magic. If you use Amazon's 'Look Inside" feature you can read a sample of the book.

The Abercrombie books are a great suggestion too but if you like Game of Thrones you might as well start at the top and read Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series. They are the books that set the standard for me.

 

[Mangara]

Elric of Melnibone by Michael Moorcock is certainly full of sword, though I suppose the magic may still be a bit overbearing for you, he makes pacts with gods and demons!

 

[RichF]

The political intrigue was what I liked the most about the books of A Song of Ice and Fire (especially Game of Thrones). I was miffed when dragons and magic started appearing in larger chunks.

Yes, I'd be happy if the dragons and magic were removed completely. Even the wildfire seemed unnecessary to me. There is plenty of action without the need for these expendable extras.

Fantasy has been going through something of a renaissance over the past ten years or so.

I think part of the problem is I have a stereotype of traditional fantasy novels from thirty years ago in my head, I need to try something more contemporary.

Thank you for all the suggestions, I'll have a look into these. Sounds like I can't go wrong with Abercrombie or Martin.

 

[biodroid]

Why would you not want magic in fantasy? It's like saying I want to read a crime novel but there must not be a crime in it.

 

[RichF]

Why would you not want magic in fantasy? It's like saying I want to read a crime novel but there must not be a crime in it.

Personal preference I think is the answer. I just lose interest if an integral part of a plot relies upon something as inconceivable to me as magic. Blame my lack of imagination!

 

[biodroid]

RichF - I don't mean use magic as a mechanism to save the heroes life like a deus ex machina. What is fantasy then if there is no magic? Is it just alternative history then?

 

[RichF]

Well I guess it depends on our definitions of magic. I'll try and explain.

I appreciate most concepts in a typical fantasy novel: the new worlds, strange creatures, the pre-modern setting, hand to hand combat and the politics and power struggles of a fictional universe. It's the use of an ability that cannot be explained that pushes the envelope of believability for me. *SPOILER*An example of this is in Game of Thrones Season 2/ A Clash of Kings when Renly Baratheon is unexpectedly killed by the shadow creature,it just seems unnecessary and I think the story would of been more interesting if that hadn't happened*SPOILER*. Back to your question I don't know if it is still fantasy without supernatural phenomena, it is a good question.

 

[BetaWolf]

You do need some kind of consistency and rules for magic, whether it's apparent at first or not. I'm reading Ursula LeGuin's The Tombs of Atuan right now, which is rather low magic (only one magic-using character) and makes sense in the story. So if you spend the time setting up an occurrence as consistent with notions of witchcraft and religion and the unseen universe in your story I don't have a problem with it.

Bernard Cornwell does this well in his Arthurian and Saxon stories. Magic is believed to exist, certain practitioners do it, but it's effects seem to be explainable by coincidence and sometimes fear of guys like Merlin.

If your story is all about knights engaging each other in a conventional battle and suddenly the last scene is one knight destroying everyone around him with a wall of fire, then that's the unforgivable deus ex machina. If it's explainable, somehow, then it's not.

@RichF: That incident makes sense in the story, too, but it's a long story arc that explains it. Plus it implicated two personae non gratae immediately in the murder, setting other things into motion.

But creating an original setting with medieval-type people doing medieval-type things but with odd names for things and no magic. I'd say that's fine. But some readers will expect a little bit of oddness. Oddness for me is what fantasy should be.

Personally, I like a few odd practitioners who pay the cost for doing anything beyond a few fireworks. You're messing around with the basic aspects of life and death here, so you better be damn careful conjuring demons, bringing someone back from the brink of death, and killing from afar. Cornwell does well pressing on the cost of such dealings, as does Jim Butcher in his Dresden Files, where doing anything spectacular relies on a lot of energy and also tempts the practitioner to get even more power for himself (rely on the books, not the television series).

 

[Brian G Turner]

RichF - I don't mean use magic as a mechanism to save the heroes life like a deus ex machina. What is fantasy then if there is no magic? Is it just alternative history then?

There's almost no magic in Lord of the Rings. Gandalf's staff sometimes glows, he makes fireworks, not much else.

 

[Fried Egg]

Why would you not want magic in fantasy? It's like saying I want to read a crime novel but there must not be a crime in it.

Not at all, magic is only one of many tropes in fantasy.

I suppose you might say something like: "Why would you not want spaceships in SF?"

 

[biodroid]

Ok, making sense to me now. I was always under the impression fantasy is expected to have magic in it.

 

[Gramm838]

I can recommend the Iron Elves trilogy by Chris Evans - I've just finished the last of them.

It's a clever mixture of Napoleonic battles and what feels to me as native American spiritualism, mixed with elves and magic...and more importantly, very few apostrophes in names!

 

[nubins]

You cant go wrong with abbercrombie.. but I would recommend you start with his first book - The Sword Itself (if memory serves, something like that anyway).

Best Served Cold.. well im reading it now and near the end, as an avid Abbercrombie fan, I would describe it as his weakest work.

If you want a standalone, then read The Heroes. Which is probably my favourite of his books.


You might also like to consider historical fiction. I've read a few books (names escape me) set in Greek and Roman times that were absolutely brilliant. Full of politics, intrigue, violence, action, adventure. All of which done with realism but due to their setting, given the freedom to be a little loose with reality. Really, they are very similar to fantasy novels.

 

[williamjm]

There's almost no magic in Lord of the Rings. Gandalf's staff sometimes glows, he makes fireworks, not much else.

I think there might have been some sort of magic ring in it as well which played a small role in the story.

You cant go wrong with abbercrombie.. but I would recommend you start with his first book - The Sword Itself (if memory serves, something like that anyway).

The Blade Itself is the first book.