Dors Venabili (Forward Foundation SPOILER)

[Bick]

*** SPOILER ***
Ok a question for those who have read Forward the Foundation:
If Dors is a robot and therefore governed first and foremost by the first law of robotics ahead of any other programming, how is she capable if killing Tamwile Elar. I'd like to think there's a reasonable explanation, and not that it's a huge inconsistency. Anyone able to rationalise this?

 

[J-Sun]

Man, is it time for me to re-read as I don't recall this. But I'm going to figure Zeroth Law. Forward is written both internally and externally after Robots and Empire where Giskard hit on the Zeroth Law (if I'm remembering that correctly) so she's not governed by the First Law ahead of anything else. (I always thought this was an incredibly slippery slope but it's part of the canon.)

I am getting the vaguest memory of it now that I think more on it - it was extremely difficult for her, right? A sort of approach to brainlock like Susan Calvin applied to some earlier robot? But she managed due to the necessity of it? I dunno.

Could you tell me where this occurred in the book or describe it more? Maybe that would help either me or others who would know but don't recall it clearly either.

 

[Bick]

I think you're probably right about the zeroth law, J-sun, though its not explicitly stated.

Details - its at the end of Part 3, (page 300 in my Bantum mmpb). Dors confronted Tanwile about what she thought was his plan to use the Electro-Clarifier device to age and kill Yugo and Hari. Tamwile then revealed that he had worked out she was a robot and was in fact using it to kill her. Dors seemingly only found it difficult to attack Tamwile because he was using the device on her during their meeting and it made her feel increasingly sick. He then "turned it up to 11" (my paraphrasing!) and she sprang at him. She killed him with a chop to the neck but by then he had done her too much damage to survive, and that's what killed her. She tells Hari as she's dying that she "finally killed a human... first times... make's it worse". I suppose she/it argued internally that saving Hari's project was saving Humanity and therefore trumps a single human. I agree though - slippery slope for robotics that zeroth law.

 

[J-Sun]

I bookmarked this thread with the intention of reading the section of the book but then forgot and only came across it now, cleaning up some bookmarks. Sorry about that. In my (apparently different) Bantam mmpb it's chapters 26-27 (pp.323-333) but that was close enough I could easily find it. Thanks. Based on re-reading, yeah, her job is to protect Seldon and when she realizes she's being removed from the equation and Hari will be left unguarded while the guy who desires to kill him will be free to do it, she basically has to kill the guy "for the greater good". So, yeah, the Zeroth Law is definitely not explicitly referenced but seems to be the underlying rationale.

I've got about six billion books to read - and I'm about to buy another couple that are just coming out. But I've got to stop - slow tremendously - because there's so much I want to re-read. I'd love to go on an Asimov binge. Even while I have serious problems with what's being depicted, it's still great - riveting dialog, of all things - and then when physical action does occur a single movement has more impact than a thousand Hollywood explosions.

 

[Bick]

Thanks J-Sun. Yes Asimov does great dialogue I think. Most of the content of his last 4-5 novels seems to be dialogue, and this is part of what makes them so easy to digest. I did my own Asimov binge over the last 2 years - rereading about 12 novels and maybe 60-70 stories. A very worthwhile use of one's life!