Character Development in ASOIAF

[Daggers]

One of the things I love about the series is the way the characters develop throughout the course of the books. I think it really shows the importance of the changing Point of View of the chapters.

One of my favourite characters is Jaime Lannister, however it wasn't until he was given his own chapters that he started to grow on me. When you begin to learn what makes a character tick, even if they do bad things, if you know why they are doing it you may come to understand them better.

I'd even argue that if Joffrey had a POV in the series, you might come to like him as a character and understand what has made him the way he is.

So I wanted to ask the question. Are there any characters you first hated, but later loved? What about loved and then hated (cough*Theon*cough)?

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this. I find it fascinating the way we as readers become so invested in the fates of these fictional people.

-Daggers

 

[devilsgrin]

i found myself growing to despise Arya - at first she was the feisty tomboy who liked playing with swords... she's since become a murderess... and i rather can't stand her anymore.
Tyrion got more and more irritating, to the point that only Dany of the POV characters do i hate more. (i've hated Dany since her first page)
Jon Snow - loved, got bored with, liked again, got bored again, loved him again...
Sansa - absolutely could not stand her to begin with... but once Ned lost his head - she began to become somewhat more pitiable even sympathetic... to now she's the character i want MOST to see have her revenge and/or "win" the game of thrones.
could never understand all the Cat hate... loved her from go to woe and i think i even still like her as stoneheart. Funnily enough i see her as the opposite side of the same coin to Cercei. One who has embraced her role as a mother, wife and Lady of a Great House, the other a grasping power-hungry vixen resentful of the roles forced upon her by gender but willing to do whatever it takes to destroy her enemies and keep her children alive. Cercei at first was just plain hateable, but once we got her POV she became love-to-hate... she's a typical day-time soap opera villainess.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I'm with you on Jaime, Daggers. When I first started reading the series, I didn't like him at all. But once he lost his hand, and he started to change as a person, I came to really like him. I would say he is one of my favorite characters now.

However, I don't think any POV could make me like Joffrey. It might make me understand why he is the way he is, but I don't think I could ever like him.

I have liked Dany all the way through. I just wish she had accomplished something more towards her goal of Westeros at this point in the story. Jon I was luke warm on at the beginning. I didn't love him or hate him, he was just another character. As the series progressed however I enjoyed him more and more.

And that's what I can think of right now.

 

[Boaz]

If you're reading my post, then I assume you've read to the end of A Dance With Dragons.

Daggers, good topic. GRRM really has worked diligently to develop his characters. The most obvious method is how he uses third person narrative point of views to tell the story... and no two consecutive chapters feature the same POV. So... not only do we learn of the plot and the circumstances of the story, we learn how one character feels about them.

The second way, as far as I've noticed, he's developed his characters is primarily through moral association. In AGOT, the Starks are the obvious protagonists. We read a total of seven Stark chapters (Bran 2, Catelyn 2, Eddard, Jon and Arya) before we ever got a Lannister chapter. By the time Tyrion gets his first chapter, we've already come to associate the Lannisters with greed, pride, lust, incest, murder, regicide, and treason. This powerful beginning association of the Starks with honesty, fidelity, duty, and prudent behavior is difficult for us to cast aside.

To support this group association... I'll note that of the 351 chapters, including prologues and epilogues from AGOT through ADWD, 150 are Stark chapters (Eddard 15, Bran 21, Sansa 24, Catelyn 25, Arya 33, and Jon 42). In comparison, the Lannisters have only 77 (Tyrion 47, Jaime 17, Cersei 12, and Kevan 1). GRRM gives us the Stark POVs 42.7 percent of the time while the Lannisters only get 21.9.

And it's not only the Lannisters... all other characters are judged by their feelings toward the Starks. Take the other kings, pretenders, and heirs to the Iron Throne for examples... I've listed them in order of image from positive to negative. The friendlier a character is to the Starks, the better we view them.

Robert loved Eddard, but treated him poorly.
Stannis disliked Eddard, but respected him. Stannis participated in black magic to murder Robb.
Tommen wanted to be friends with Bran.
Myrcella wanted Bran to recover from his accident.
Aegon's view on the Starks are unknown to me... but he is planning on claiming the entire realm.
Dany wanted revenge upon Eddard for her family. She vowed to restore Jorah in spite of the Starks.
Renly, the Master of Laws, abandoned Eddard and proclaimed himself King. Later he refused an alliance with Robb.
Euron is planning to complete the conquest of the North.
Viserys despised Eddard for being a rebel and playing a major role in Rhaegar's death.
Balon hated Eddard for killing his eldest sons. He hated him for taking Theon hostage. He attacked Robb's kingdom without provocation nor formal declaration of war.
Joffrey mocked Robb. He attacked Arya. He named Eddard a traitor and ordered his execution. He abused Sansa. He gloried in Robb's death.

It is not until the first chapter of ASOS that we even get the second POV from a Lannister character.

Sure, Tyrion is presented as a sympathetic character... but the Lannister traits of guile, pride, vengeance, and privilege run as deep in him as they do in his siblings.

One other way that GRRM is developing his characters is through the aging process. Often, teenage characters never age or age very slowly in a long running serial. Even more than that, youngsters seem to almost always win even though they lack experience. Martin's teenagers go through some tough times and experience some victories, but for the most part they find life tough when they don't have parents looking out for them.

Jon and Dany both do well when they are initially thrust into leadership. But after they dismiss their veteran counselors and the honeymoon with their followers is over, both of them find themselves facing open rebellion. It's not that they're bad people, they're too young and inexperienced to navigate the administrative, cultural, political, economic, and religious pitfalls and traps. I was glad to see these developments in ADWD.

It's like the story of the college student going to work for a Fortune 500 company. He gets a summer job in the mail room because he's young, but he dreams of being CEO someday. He goes to work day after day. One day while eating luch in the cafeteria, he spies the company's founder and CEO sitting down to eat. Seizing the chance, the young man joins the CEO... "Sir, you are my hero. I want to be just like you some day."
"Thanks, son. What work are you doing?"
"Oh, I'm in the mail room now, but not for long.... Sir, what one thing should I do to become CEO?"
The CEO responds, "Make good decisions."
The young man chews on that for a few seconds and then asks, "Ummm, how do I make good decisions?"
"Through experience," replies the CEO.
Figuring the CEO wants him to ask, the young man says, "Sir, how do I get experience?"
And the CEO responds, "Make bad decisions."

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

As always, nice post Boaz. I never really payed attention to the breakdown of chapters before (Stark vs Lannister), so thanks for that.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

For me, Theon was definately a character that I liked until he got a POV chapter. I found his chapters at first boring and then incredibly frustrating. Watching him make so many mistakes and turn on the charcters that I liked (The starks) was difficult to read. (but very good story telling)

Jaime went the other way. I hated him until I got a POV from him. Also, since getting POV chapters, he seems to have really redeemed himself/gone through some notable changes.

Cersei I started off hating then when I got her POV chapters I started to super-hate her. I hate her like she is a real person. with every descision she makes I want to yell at her. I think her chapters were the only in the book that made me groan out loud.

Littlefinger I have grown to respest. Not like, exactly, he is far too despicable to actually like, but I certainly have respect for him. I started off hating him but im not sure I do anymore. I think Killing Lysa had something to do with it.

 

[Keebs411]

I think Killing Lysa had something to do with it.

It deff helped LOL. i mean 0137849063

 

[Keebs411]

OOPS there goes my neice on my keyboard lol hahahah. apprently she agrees lol, via numbers?

 

[Keebs411]

But yes, i think by that point in the story i would have been a fan of any one who took care of that looney lady

(even if my fandom only lasted a few seconds)

 

[Needle]

Okay, let me try and tackle this! Lannisters first.

Cersei-hated her in the beginning-hated her more after her POV's-hate her still!

Jamie-Disliked him in the beginning, hated after throwing Bran out the window. Once his POV's began the hate waned as I began to understand him. Now that he is attempting to redeem himself and becoming as disgusted with Cersei as we are, I think I am starting to love him!

Tyrion-I loved him immediately! Yes he can be selfish and greedy, it's in his blood (even if some crackpot theories around here are true, it's still in his blood!) He is also smart, sarcastic (a trait we share, I must say! ),sympathetic to others, and he cares about more than himself, he does what he can to protect those he cares about, even Cersei.

Joff- couldn't die fast enough!

Starks:

Ned- can't say I ever really liked him. Respected him, admired him, but never truly liked him.

Cat- She's a hard one. I could have loved her if not for Jon. For someone who's whole life revolved around her family, to not make Jon a part of it, is beyond me to understand.

Robb- Was everything he was supposed to be, till he made one stupid mistake, yet never really came to care for him one way or the other.

Sansa- What to say about the potted plant in the room? She is finally learning the game from one of the best and I think she will be important in the end. But I don't love her or hate her, just like the plant, she's there but I just don't care much.

Bran- Even though he is just a boy I like him. He is our first speaker, sets the story up for us. Do I like who he is becoming? That remains to be seen.

Jon- I was so-so at first. I think through the soul searching we have seen him do I like him more and more.

Dany- Love, love, love her till ADWD! I have added her to my prayers that she has now got her **** together and remembers what to do with it!

Arya- Everyone here knows she is my girl. And that's all I got to say about that!

 

[Reivax26]

I like Jaime, Tyrion, Jon Snow, and Bronn. I despise Arya and Sansa. Can't stand either of their chapters. To be in fact I have reread all the novels several times and I purposely skip the Stark chapters that don't have Jon Snow in them.

At the end, I would like to see Tyrion and Bronn storm the Eeyrie and take it. I have the feeling because of the hints that were dropped during Game of Thrones.

 

[Boaz]

The POV method allows GRRM to simply tell multiple stories and allows us to follow these stories as stand alone material if we wish.

He released three novellas that run character and family story arcs from certain books. Path of the Dragon (1996) is basically a compilation of Dany's chapters from AGOT while Blood of the Dragon (2000) features Dany's story from ASOS. Arms of the Kraken (2003) is similar, but it tells the story from the Greyjoy family POVs.

I also want to note that our likes or dislikes of characters does not necessarily have anything to do with their development.

From the first two glimpses of Joffrey in Eddard's and Jon's first chapters, we form an unfavorable opinion of Joffrey. When he finally starts speaking in Arya's first chapter, we instantly dislike him. In Tyrion's first chapter, we actively want ill for him. In Sansa's first chapter, we come to hate him. And think of how little of Joffrey we've seen by the time Nymeria bites him... GRRM had not even begun to grow Joffrey's character into the sadistic tyrant he became.

Robb, on the other hand, is a good kid and straight forward character. We already like Robb by the end of Bran's first chapter... he laughs, he races horses, he's found wolf puppies, he's found the cause of the direwolf's death, and he declares he will save his pup.

I'm saying that Joffrey and Robb were introduced as opposites on a moral spectrum. GRRM only continued to reinforce their strength at their positions. And I think this is about all he could do with such young, non-POV characters. They each represent an end of the spectrum...

An epic story needs heroes. An epic story also needs villains. Heroes do not define villains. It is the villains who define the heroes. For example, Jon becomes more of a hero as his villains become stronger. Rast, Ser Alliser, Othor, Styr's raiders, Mance's army, the Wildling race... Obviously, Rast and Ser Alliser were mere annoyances. Jon got help from Ghost to deal with Othor. But defending the Wall was a very heroic deed.

Robb fighting against Tywin was just a war, but Robb warring to end Joffrey's tyranny was a crusade. Better villains make a better story... and GRRM gives us Joffrey, Viserys, Cersei, Jaime, the Mountain, the Hound, Janos, Melisandre, Euron, and Oberyn.

I know most people like Oberyn, but he was a bad, bad man. Just because his interests aligned with Tyrion does not mean he was a hero. If his interests had been contrary to Tyrion's, then we'd have viewed him more like Lyn Corbray... an opportunistic, sadistic, manipulative, lecherous killer.

Jorah grows as much as any non-POV in the story. He starts out as neutral, probably suspect because of his background in slavery. He then allies himself with Viserys and we think he'll be a villain. He quickly abandons Viserys for Dany and we think he might be good, but we learn he's working for Varys. He continues to protect Dany with his wise counsel and his sword and we start to like him. He gains the respect of Dany's bloodriders. Jorah continues to prove his worth as Dany's general, Queensguard and de facto Hand. We see that he's homesick for his lands and for his wife. We feel pity for him. This desire for home and family are transferred from Bear Island and Lynesse to the person and location of Dany... and that is Jorah's mistake. His possessive attitude towards Dany and his job get him exiled instead of forgiven by Dany when his early treachery is revealed by BFS. Jorah disappears forever until Tyrion runs into him in Volantis. At this point, Jorah's ruthlessness and desperation are laid bare. The noble warrior is gone as he resorts to kidnapping.

Jorah is one of my favorite characters. Just like Catelyn, he can analyze others' situations and solve their problems, but becomes blinded by passion in his own circumstances. Just like Theon, if he'd done the moral thing years ago instead of cutting corners to make someone happy, then he'd be much better off now. I wonder what Dany will do if she sees him again. I imagine the only warm reception she'd give him is if he saves her life.

Whether you love or hate Jon, he's not the kid we met at Gared's execution. Whether you like or dislike Jorah, we know he's not the plain fighting man we met at Magister Illyrio's party. Whether you love Catelyn or hate her, you can understand her passions, her duty, her intelligence, her fears, and her motivations. Whether you even care for Samwell Tarly, you have seen him gain confidence in his abilities, gain friends, gain experience, and lose weight.

 

[Reivax26]

I actually hope that Samwell Tarly becomes the Lord Commander in the last book.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I actually hope that Samwell Tarly becomes the Lord Commander in the last book.

He would probably make a good LC but if he becomes a Maester he won't be able to become the LC. their order serves, it does not rule. At this point I am questioning whether Sam even makes it back to the wall by the time the story "ends".

 

[sozme]

Jaime's development I think is most pronounced up to this point

 

[Ivanya]

Personally, I am a huge Hound fan. He changed from a stereotypical villain to someone I felt compassionate towards. I actually wish Arya had remained with him, instead of running off across the seas and leaving him to bleed.

I'd love to see chapters from Littlefinger and Varys' points of view, because despite them both being devious, they're fascinating.

Jaime as many others have pointed out is vastly entertaining now that he has his own chapters, whilst Cersei becomes ever more deplorable.

Sansa, despite becoming a great deal smarter and more jaded, seems to be happy to let herself be used as a pawn so long as it ensures her survival. It'd be great to see her have her chance to be brave and actually effect something large. As for Arya, I'm really hoping for some change in her situation in the next book. It feels somewhat like she's stagnated since she went to the temple and started training. The same applies to Dany, up until the last few chapters of A Dance With Dragons. I respect how strong she's become, and that she needs experience in rule before she heads across to the Seven Kingdoms, but it feels too much like she's procrastinating, forgetting her cause.

Unfortunately, whenever I get to a Sam or a Bran chapter I switch off a little. Sam has changed, but not enough for me to admire him. Bran... well he's a kid, and Martin gives him the faults of a kid. In one respect it means he's well written, but in another, I get tired of his impatience and whining!

 

[Tywin]

Unfortunately, whenever I get to a Sam or a Bran chapter I switch off a little. Sam has changed, but not enough for me to admire him. Bran... well he's a kid, and Martin gives him the faults of a kid. In one respect it means he's well written, but in another, I get tired of his impatience and whining!

I'm definitely with you on the Bran ones. I think they may also be boring because the protagonist isn't actually 'doing' anything themself. Bran just seems like chapter after chapter of being led by the nose to his destiny.

 

[Ivanya]

I'm definitely with you on the Bran ones. I think they may also be boring because the protagonist isn't actually 'doing' anything themself. Bran just seems like chapter after chapter of being led by the nose to his destiny.

Agreed! And to a destiny he doesn't particularly want. Not that he can be blamed, if he's going to end up like the 'last greenseer' fellow in the caves.