Humans, hybrids, and posthumans--oh my!

[BetaWolf]

What is the feeling about human-<something else> hybrids in sff? In high fantasy, having some non-human ancestry is rather common, from Elrond forward. In space opera, it's pretty common, too--Star Trek presenting a universe where anything mixes genetically with human.

In science fiction with something of a realistic edge to it, chances are that you won't find humans being able to mate successfully with alien species (and produce fertile young to boot).

In my current WIP, I've got all kinds of human sub-species or 'posthumans' to use the trendy term, adapted to different environments. Human colonists on Mars have adapted to that 0.3g environment, for example. Aldous Huxley anticipated adapting certain classes of the population to certain conditions in utero to a degree in Brave New World. H.G. Wells may have written the first posthuman characters in The Time Machine.

I wanted to gauge how or if you are handling other-than-human characters in your writing.

 

[Tecdavid]

Personally, I think your idea sounds pretty good. Humans having changed to adapt to different climates seems perfectly reasonable, as far as I can see.

There's one sub-human race in my WiP, but the differences between themselves and commonplace humans are rather slight (On the face of things, anyway). The history I've given them is similar to yours, I think: they share a common ancestry with mankind, but just developed differently as a result of their environment.

 

[Verse]

I think for SF that's pretty much correct. The idea of humans being able to mate with alien humanoids and produce viable offspring is laughable (V, anyone?).

However, human subspecies being able to interbreed is much more likely.There is (some say) DNA evidence that homo-sapiens and Neanderthals interbred, so this can be extrapolated to future sub-species too.

The other route to human/something hybrids is not through normal procreation but through construction e.g. DNA editing to produce a hybrid. This requires that the most basic biology of DNA in humans and aliens are compatible, and why the Species series of films are such crap. This could also work if you have a back story of ancient astronauts seeding the universe with their DNA (Prometheus used this in the plot).

 

[Vertigo]

On the other hand many authors have played with splicing non human but terran DNA into human DNA to create hybrids/chimeras (Neal Asher does this a lot). All terran DNA is related but the chance of non terran DNA being compatible is, I think, vanishingly small. Though possibly, if you hold with the Panspermia theories, I suppose you could make a case for it.

 

[BetaWolf]

I agree there would have to be some common ancestry--evolving on the same planet, for starters. Going back to mythology, there is plenty of mating between different sentient races. But it should all be part of the same closed 'system'.

@tecdavid: It sort of makes sense that at least for slower-than-light civilizations, you'd have this sort of differentiation occurring, while remaining one species capable of 'reuniting' at some point.

@Verse & Vertigo: I wouldn't rule out Panspermia. It makes for a nice big picture I think. Angels or reptilian humanoids or whatnot could be as close as early modern humans and Neanderthals. I'm toying with the idea of retroviruses right now (as a way to transfer genetic material from one species to another), but I don't know where I'm going with it yet.

 

[nightdreamer]

I think that sounds like a marvelous idea. You should explore it; vertigo is quite right that DNA evidence suggests that humans interbred with neanderthals (and not just neanderthals, if I remember correctly), separated by more years of evolution than your characters are likely to be.

I always thought the interbreeding on Star Trek was at best unlikely, but more properly, stupid. What are the odds of compatible genetics? Granted, I have some humanoid species interbreeding, but there comes a proviso later on that justifies it. I'd be terrified to think of a human-Palainian hybrid!

 

[Bowler1]

I’m sure there will be sex, Captain Kirk style with aliens, probes and all, but I don’t expect much to come of it other than a lot of messy fun! Even if you hold to the Panspermia theory (I don’t mind this theory one way or the other, it’s a nice idea), evolution, and the millions of years evolution on Earth would make our life very unique. We may well be compatible with life in other worlds and be able to eat the food there etc. and digest it for our own use, but not on all worlds. Unlike Vertigo, I think life on similar worlds will for the most part follow similar evolution patterns, it’s now just a question of how many Earth like worlds there are out there? If it’s not Earth like don’t expect to get on too well with the local plant life, a dose of the runs may be the least of your problems!

As to changes in humans, that would of course happen. Different gravity would change our bodies, and this is just the first thing that popped into my head. So once away from Earth we’d very quickly start to look very different. We’d finally have an excuse for racist behaviour as there could be green humans with four legs and eight eyes. We’d quickly develop into new species, a few hundred years is all this might take (see Hilldiggers, Neal Asher) as environmental pressures force bodily changes. This is before technology augments us and changes us into Borg or similar. All this is why I write science fiction, everything is possible.

I have normal humans and augmented humans, and loads of weird aliens – why stop at the humans, developing your own aliens is much more fun. Mix it all up with nanobots, a few mad robots and RAY GUNS and it’s a fun, fun cocktail – anyone for a drink?

 

[Mouse]

I've gone for a sort of nephilim (the spell checker wants to change that to Philippine!) in my current WiP. So angel/human hybrids.

I'm not really down with the whole human-alien shagging... that just grosses me out.

 

[Dave]

I always thought the interbreeding on Star Trek was at best unlikely, but more properly, stupid.

In the TNG episode 'The Chase' they did almost explain it by a panspermia seeding of DNA throughout the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Then Voyager, travelling in the Delta Quadrant, rather spoiled that explanation. It was always feeble in any case.

I’m sure there will be sex, Captain Kirk style with aliens, probes and all, but I don’t expect much to come of it other than a lot of messy fun!

It is nice to think that Xeno-rascism and discrimination has been so removed that alien sex is an everyday occurrence, but really!!

Larry Niven has humans adapted to their environments. Crashlanders, from We Made It tend to be very tall, and many are albinos. Jinixian, heavyworlders are squat, dense and the strongest bipeds in Known Space.

I see space living humans of the future loosing their leg muscles through lack of use.

Whether they become new species would depend on the length of time the communities are separated. That would depend on if you think FTL would be invented or not.

On the other hand many authors have played with splicing non human but terran DNA into human DNA to create hybrids/chimeras.

We don't even need to find a non-human equivalent. Once we map the human genome we could begin writing our own code. If I was living on another planet then I would certainly opt for gene therapy that would not render me effectively disabled on that planet. No doubt though, companies would have it written into your contract.

 

[Dave]

Apologies for the double post, but I just read this on BBC News:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22002530

 

[Ursa major]

@Verse & Vertigo: I wouldn't rule out Panspermia. It makes for a nice big picture I think. Angels or reptilian humanoids or whatnot could be as close as early modern humans and Neanderthals. I'm toying with the idea of retroviruses right now (as a way to transfer genetic material from one species to another), but I don't know where I'm going with it yet.

I may be wrong, but I thought the idea of panspermia was that certain life forms (possible in their most durable form, such as spores) might be able to survive the journey between one planet/moon and another.

For a human to mate successfully (i.e. producing non-sterile offspring) with a life form from another world requires that life form to be, in effect, homo sapiens, i.e. the same species as us. That could only happen if we were brought here from that planet as homo sapiens (making us originally aliens to this world), or if they were homo sapiens taken to their home from here in the last few million years (so they could be, at the furthest, genetically, a sub species within homo sapiens).

Even if a real alien, i.e. a different species at the very least, looked identical to us, that would likely just be an example of convergent evolution: two incompatible genotypes that happen to express an identical phenotype.

On the other hand, once one can fully engineer DNA, all bets are off.


As to my own writing: except in the frame story, all the characters are aliens. To say much more than that would be to give too many spoilers, but 'who is what?' does, eventually, play a big part.

 

[BetaWolf]

I may be wrong, but I thought the idea of panspermia was that certain life forms (possible in their most durable form, such as spores) might be able to survive the journey between one planet/moon and another.

You are correct. I mashed a couple of thoughts together there. Quite a few sci fi writers have used the idea of one progenitor race that spread sentient beings to new worlds (Stargate comes to mind), which is a different kettle of eels.

What I should have said is that sentient beings in many mythologies are compatible to a degree, that is they can be defined as a single species biologically speaking. The nephilim for example were the product of angels and humans, depending on how you interpret that passage in the Book of Genesis. In fantasy it seems to work. Humans and elves, for example. The Fair Folk, angels, and demons seem able to mate with humans successfully.

A similar case can be made for the presence of more than one species of hominid over the last couple million years. The idea of having distinct 'species' might even break down, at least in certain locales. More recent work on the human genome suggests that Europeans have more Neanderthal genes than other current human populations, so likely the two 'species' often interbred.

I suppose you could use genetic engineering to make two populations compatible for interbreeding. My understanding is one difficulty is the number of chromosomes that each potential partner has; but this is not the only problem to overcome.

My own mythos (I have a mythos! ) involves a very long term time frame with a number of sentient species present on Earth that evolved there. Then there are the Outsiders who no one really knows about, other than they, well, aren't from Earth.

 

[Vertigo]

Just to correct a couple of points in the posts above. The Neanderthal point was made by Verse, not me though I do agree!

And, secondly, I do actually agree with Bowler on the parallel evolution ideas. Personally (and I don't want to drive this off-topic) I think, until we see evidence of higher order life evolving in radically different environments (extreme heat/cold/radiation or whatever), that any higher order life out there is likely to be in environements similar to ours. Carbon based, liquid water present etc. and I therefore think you will see very similar types of life evolving there. For example I don't think you will see six-legged animals; outside of insects we have produced no six-legged animals throughout millions of years of evolutionary experiments and the overall organisation of the bodies of insect like creatures simply doesn't seem to scale up. So I personally don't expect any life we find out there to be radically different to us or even radically different to how we think (faced with similar evolutionary problems they are likely to evolve similar thought processes to deal with them). But the fundamental building blocks (DNA in our case) are highly unlikely to be compatible. Please note, I am not trying to turn this into a discussion of different possible alien life forms.

However I also agree with Ursa that even if you go for Panspermia, I think the likelihood of life travelling between stars buried in asteroids etc. to be vanishingly small. How many meteorites have we found so far that have not originated in our our own system? I don't know the answer to that one but I strongly suspect it is a resounding zero.

 

[Ursa major]

However I also agree with Ursa that even if you go for Panspermia, I think the likelihood of life travelling between stars buried in asteroids etc. to be vanishingly small. How many meteorites have we found so far that have not originated in our our own system? I don't know the answer to that one but I strongly suspect it is a resounding zero.

I know that what I said about planets and moons could be read that way, but I was only thinking of the most appropriate sources and sinks, and not about the distances (AUs as opposed to light years) between them.

But that doesn't mean I don't agree with you.

And anyway, in this context, spores** that take a long time to travel between suitable habitats are unlikely to be that compatible with the (evolving) life form left at the original source. (Okay, I accept that a species that can alter its environment, and which is, in effect, the top predator, may no longer need to evolve in the way other species do, but....)


All this is in the context of SF (and not Science Fantasy). In Fantasy, evolution and the rules of genetics can always be trumped by magic, or its equivalent, if needed.


** - Setting aside whether intelligent species have spores as part of their reproductive processes. (And not even thinking about the fact that humans don't. )

 

[thaddeus6th]

It'd also make sense as a safety mechanism. If one subspecies were becoming an evolutionary dead end it'd be helpful to add variety to the gene pool if other subspecies could mate with them.

 

[Bowler1]

The tone of this thread is heading in one direction.

Bowler1 and Captain Kirt wait happily in the wings, little blue pills held in sweaty palms with eager smiles.

That should make you think about my happy yellow smile!

 

[BetaWolf]

Good points, Ursa and Vertigo. My original question has been answered, and I'd be happy to see this thread go wherever anyone wants to take it. Sorry I mixed up a few respondents' points.

Without revealing too much, I am building on the old idea from Hesiod that there were several successive dominant species on Earth--his six ages of man. The older ones are still hanging around (as protective spirits). Earth is the cradle of all these beings, though all other heavenly bodies have some kind of spirit attached to them. Faster-than-light (and interstellar) travel does not yet exist. Though we'll see.

This thread has helped me sort out some conceptual issues. For that I am grateful to all of you.

 

[Mirannan]

It might be possible to create human subspecies which are mutually fertile, but perhaps as different from each other as dog breeds are. In fact, this might happen naturally as humans spread out into the Galaxy onto worlds with marginally-habitable environments; high or low gravity, hotter, colder, different atmospheres. I remember reading a story of which the central theme was the first human able to breathe, unaided, the lower atmosphere of a planet with high CO2 levels (at low altitude, that is - the main human habitats were high up on mountains).

Similarly, such things as prehensile tails or chimpanzee-style gripping feet might prove useful in some environments and might be possible without too much tweaking.