Faceless Men, Crackpot Theories, etc

[GonnaNeedaBiggerBoat]

Hello Everyone! Love love love this forum
First posting, so a little about me I guess: On my second read through, starting AFFC again. Thought I had good reading comprehension skills...until I visited this forum. Avid watcher of the series as well, which I must say can get things a bit jumbly in my head when something is added or omitted--was that the work of D/D, was it something that George wished he had done originally so you better really pay attention or was it for smooshing purposes and can probably be ignored? Enough about me

The various Faceless Men Theories are intriguing in some ways and disturbing in others. Varys being an FM or controlling them outright makes total sense--it fits with what we know of his character, it feels right. Other suggestions have felt like cheating, allowing for too many "Aha!" moments that could never end once started. For instance:
--You thought you beheaded me at the Sept of Baelor? Aha! That was a faceless man, I've been sitting in the godswood, wondering where all this smoke is coming from!
--You caved in my chest with your mighty hammer on the Trident? Aha! That was a faceless man and I hired one for Aegon AND Lyanna too--we've been holed up and shagging for 17 years, cranking out Targ after Targ after Targ, waiting for Dany to hurry up with those darn dragons!
And speaking of Dany--putting an FM as her confidante is so not needed and well, cruel. She's making enough mistakes all on her own thank you, she doesn't need anyone to guide her to more. Just to be clear, huge Dany fan, but she's fifteen, tromping around in a desert and somehow knew that she should sit in a fire to awaken 3 dragons. I think she's doing much better than anyone else could have, given the circs.

If Martin were to "sub in" faceless men, it would be like that moment where time travel is suddenly possible...and then the writing just goes to ruin because there can always be a re-do, someone is always looping back to just before something pivotal happens and changing what we know as the truth. That doesn't feel to me like something Martin would do. Point out indications otherwise, but his writing feels honest. He's also sneaky, cagey, clever and seems to derive genuine pleasure from ripping away and tearing down every character his audience holds dear, but that's why we love him

 

[Gumboot]

I don't understand what you're saying. Agents of the Faceless Man wear faces of the dead when they do their killing, to disguise their identity. Are you suggesting that people like Ned Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen have been wearing the faces of dead people their entire lives and no one has noticed?

That sounds... implausible.

It would also be totally at odds with everything we know of the Guild of Faceless Men for them to so embroil themselves in the politics of the Seven Kingdoms. Valar morghulis, after all.

 

[GonnaNeedaBiggerBoat]

Hi Gumboot
I'm responding to a couple of threads and general theories--wasn't sure where to put it, so started a new one. These theories suggest that Rhaegar and Ned are alive, for instance and in the case of Ned, perhaps an FM was used in his place to pull it off. Also that the FM might be characters we already know, but are not actually who we think they are--Mel, Missandrei (sp), Varys to name a few. As I said, I feel it would be an honest expression of Varys' character if it turns out he is or is involved with the FM, but the other uses of them would feel like cheating for lack of a better term. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[Tywin]

GNBB, welcome to the forum to end all forums.

Yes, these are ridiculous crackpot theories that you are pointing out. That's partially why we love them (let's see if anyone can get crazier than the Imp's "Ned is Alive" theory), but it also is a function of the fact that many of the more likely theories are now accepted as the most likely options that they don't get raised up here for discussion anymore.

R+L = J, for instance, is fairly well accepted as the most likely option for Jon's parentage. Debate is over, bases have been covered. You won't find it in a recently updated thread.

 

[GonnaNeedaBiggerBoat]

Absolutely, Tywin--my intent was to poke holes in those particular theories, not to say that we shouldn't all keep trying with more crackpottery and to say how very sad I would be if GRRM plopped in an FM here and there without prior clues just to tidy/mess things up.
btw, I just read a different wrinkle on the above equation A+L=J, tying into the whole serial rapist thing--hope that's not the case, much prefer to think that R+L=J

 

[Tywin]

I think A+L=J is a tad more crack-potty than R+L=J. GRRM put a lot of clues in leading to R+L=J, specifically focusing on the tourney at Harrenhal, Rhaegar giving the blue flowers to Lyanna, Ned's memories of the Tower of Joy with Lyanna, blood, and blue flowers, etc.

 

[Gumboot]

Hi Gumboot
I'm responding to a couple of threads and general theories--wasn't sure where to put it, so started a new one. These theories suggest that Rhaegar and Ned are alive, for instance and in the case of Ned, perhaps an FM was used in his place to pull it off. Also that the FM might be characters we already know, but are not actually who we think they are--Mel, Missandrei (sp), Varys to name a few. As I said, I feel it would be an honest expression of Varys' character if it turns out he is or is involved with the FM, but the other uses of them would feel like cheating for lack of a better term. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I understand what you're saying, I am just trying to make sense of how it would work. Faceless Men wear faces of dead people who've donated themselves to the Many Faced God. They can't wear a living person's face. So if a Faceless Man stood in for Ned at his execution, that means Ned was already dead. So the only way Ned Stark can actually be alive is if he has had a Faceless Man stand in for him his entire life.

See the problem?

 

[GonnaNeedaBiggerBoat]

I have no idea how it would work--they're not my theories

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I think the only person who believes Ned is still alive is Imp...

on the subject of faceless men though, do you think if Arya completes here training, that it will be the end of her chapters? we lost Cat's POVs when she became Uncat and Faceless men are supposed to leave who they were behind and give themselves completely to the many faced god.

 

[GonnaNeedaBiggerBoat]

That's a great Q, Arsten. I think it would be interesting to have a new POV--the new POV shows us the story of whatever arc they're involved in and we don't know it's Arya, until we figure it out or it's revealed later on. I would think he'll find a way to tell her story somehow, he's kept her alive for this long, there has to be a reason, right?

 

[Tywin]

I think the only person who believes Ned is still alive is Imp...

on the subject of faceless men though, do you think if Arya completes here training, that it will be the end of her chapters? we lost Cat's POVs when she became Uncat and Faceless men are supposed to leave who they were behind and give themselves completely to the many faced god.

I think that Arya of House Stark will never cease being who she is. That's the story arc developing there: on the one hand she has the faceless men demanding that she become 'no one', and on the other hand you have 3 thousand years of Stark blood.

Oh, and then there's also the question of whether or not the faceless men require people to "Be" nobody, or just to "Appear" to be nobody.

 

[joshrackley]

I think that Arya of House Stark will never cease being who she is. That's the story arc developing there: on the one hand she has the faceless men demanding that she become 'no one', and on the other hand you have 3 thousand years of Stark blood.

Oh, and then there's also the question of whether or not the faceless men require people to "Be" nobody, or just to "Appear" to be nobody.

Took the words out of my mouth. In addition, we've already seen several pieces of evidence to confirm this theory: she continues to have wolf dreams, she wargs into the cat, she couldn't get rid of Needle (just hid it), she killed Dareon, etc. All of these facts point to the conclusion that she will remain "Arya" but will continue getting better at lying about it. That seems to be how she'll progress through the training.

 

[Tywin]

Took the words out of my mouth. In addition, we've already seen several pieces of evidence to confirm this theory: she continues to have wolf dreams, she wargs into the cat, she couldn't get rid of Needle (just hid it), she killed Dareon, etc. All of these facts point to the conclusion that she will remain "Arya" but will continue getting better at lying about it. That seems to be how she'll progress through the training.

Perhaps it's how pupils are expected to progress through training anyway. I'm not sure if there is a practical benefit in actually having no desires/motivations/personality, but there is certainly a benefit in not displaying any of that.

 

[Boaz]

Alert... I'm going waaay off topic with this post.

Ty, I agree with you and josh regarding how Arya will always identify herself as a Stark. The practicality of ridding a pupil of personal desires, motivations, and personality is to turn him/her into a weapon, eg. The Unsullied. Many orgainizations in ASOIAF try to do this with varying degrees of success.

The slavers of the east, especially Astapor, seem to achieve their goals fairly well. They use lots of drugs and horrific brainwashing techniques... but they turn their slaves into unquestioning automatons.

The Kingsguard, on the other hand, seem to have a much lower rate of success. Of course, these men are knights (except for Clegane) and their submission of their will is supposed to come from their religious beliefs and their social status.

The methods of the Night's Watch are similar. But not only do they appeal to a person's nobility, they threaten their lives as well. The word 'throffer' is a portmanteau of threat and offer... and that is what most of the men in the NW got.

The slavers suck out all personality while the people of Westeros appeal to their humanity. But the assassins of the House of Black and White go for a different approach... they seek to get the pupil to empty him/herself voluntarily in hopes of achieving secret knowledge. They tantalize the pupil with hidden secrets so that when the pupil finally attains the knowledge after years and years, he or she will be in so deep that they will not want to leave or that he/she cannot do anything else.

Another great example is Theon. Ramsay tries to completely twist him for amusement.

Sandor is another. He refused to be knighted. He wanted all the power of a knight, but he refused the indoctrination. He was also one of Arya's teachers... mayhaps her most influential teacher.

Aemon and Jon are another pair. Aemon's brief description of his choices is moving. Jon's faced choices and has finally thrown off the yoke of the NW...

But in the end, all of these organizations must deal with rebels. The Good Masters kill the weak. The NW execute the oathbreakers. The King executes traitorous Kingsguards. The Faith imprisons and judges the blasphemous. The Ironborn cast out or kill the soft. I can only imagine what the Faceless Men do their own that rebel...

And that is where Arya will end if she goes rogue. Can you imagine Arya wreaking havoc in the Seven Kingdoms until Jaqen comes for her? "A girl has lost her face. The Red God is not mocked."

Usually this theme of free will and automation are themes of sci-fi or theology. I had not picked up on this before in ASOIAF. I find it interesting that GRRM delves into it.

 

[Yavannie]

What a great post, Boaz, thanks for posting that. Made me see things in a whole different light.

I have nothing to add but this: So basically the Faceless Men are the scientologists of ASOIAF? Aside from what you said, there's reputedly massive amounts of cash involved dealing with both as well

 

[Boaz]

Yavannie, thanks. I wouldn't call it a great post... they're just my observations and amateurish critiques. Earlier today, I heard The Alan Parsons' Project song I Wouldn't Want To Be Like You, from the album I Robot... so I think free will and automation were already on the forefront of my brain.

Lots of control in secret knowledge. Lots of cash in control. Lots of power in cash. Lots of sex in power.

 

[Eulalia]

Very thoughtful post, Boaz.

The treatment of Cersei comes to mind from your analysis. G.R.R.M is devious--I don't know how else I could have pitied her. She was quite a rebel within her culture, but she is too much of a villein to like her.

Sansa is pretty much indoctrinated by the culture--and then her personality goes underground in order to survive brutality and manipulation. Arya and Sansa adapt in different ways.

 

[Tywin]

Ty, I agree with you and josh regarding how Arya will always identify herself as a Stark. The practicality of ridding a pupil of personal desires, motivations, and personality is to turn him/her into a weapon, eg. The Unsullied. Many orgainizations in ASOIAF try to do this with varying degrees of success.

So you say. I don't note any evidence other than supposition.

 

[Boaz]

Weapon. Tool. Instrument. For the purpose of fulfilling the doctrine of the teachers. Independent motivations and goals are dangerous to the group. Maester Aemon told Jon why the Night's Watch vowed to never have wives and children. "So they will not love, for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."

Ty, yes. I am assuming that the organizations, groups, and societies of ASOIAF have this much in common with us.

A friend wanted me to read From Baghdad with Love. So I did. The most interesting part of the book, was the author's description of U.S. Marine training. He wrote that the actual percentage of U.S. combat infantry during WW2 who actually took aim at a human target and fired is one in ten. This rose to two in ten in Korea, but was over seven in ten in Vietnam. The account for the huge jump is to more rigorous training methods, especially the use of human silhouette targets instead of the old bullseye. I've never served in the military and my memory may be hazy on the percentages quoted in the book, but the point is that humans are not created to be killing machines... they have to be taught how to not see the enemy as a human, but just as a target.

When I was thirteen, I got my first job... raking grass cuttings and bagging trash. My initial reaction was to sleep in during the summer break. I had to be taught to get up early and perform. I became an instrument of landscaping.

In football, I played tight end. Our quarterback always made sure he never threw anywhere near the opponents... this meant the ball was either in the dirt or ten feet in the air. Being the only player capable of catching a ball that high, I was always called upon to be the receiver over the middle. That is the territory of the linebackers and outstretched receivers often take hard shots to the ribs or get upended. At first I was terrified... and I never held on to any balls once contact was made. But by my senior year, I caught balls while being flipped or while taking a helmet to the ribs. I was the coach's tool for third and five.

My own personality as a child was too pull up flowers, push my little brother, and lie about stealing cookies. My parents and teachers had to instruct me in the ways of being a meaningful member of family and society.

Neither a society, an army, a team, nor a family teach without a desired result in mind. They teach methodology that will directly benefit the group.

Is every teacher effective? No. Does every student totally apply him/herself? No. Will people fall through the cracks? Yes.

Arya seems to be such a student for the Faceless Men. She does not seem to buy in totally to what they are doing. She has her own agenda for learning their talents. Arya's deep longing for vengeance will keep her resisting believing in their mission.

Will they make her swear an oath? How will they know she'll be obedient? In ASOIAF, like ancient and medieval times (and not so unlike our own), people take vows to ensure their behavior. In the ASOS prologue, how did the Old Bear get his men ready for battle against overwhelming odds? "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come."

The Hound told the Brotherhood... "A knight's a sword with a horse. The rest, the vows and the sacred oild and the ladys favors, they're silk ribbons tied round the sword. Maybe the sword's prettier with the ribbons hanging off it, but it will kill you just as dead. Well, bugger your ribbons, and shove your swords up your arses. I'm the same as you . The only difference is, I don't lie about what I am." Here he claims that he resisted the underlying meanings of the lessons. He took what he wanted... to learn to kill. That's all. Not only is he a bad apple, he's claiming the whole tree is rotten as well... but that's another topic.

We find out that Jaime believed deeply in chivalry. But when push came to shove... he discovered his free will and his morals... and he shoved his sword in King Aerys' back. Jaime came to regret believing in the code... "So many vows … they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or another."

On the other hand, Theon was fairly well indoctrinated by the Starks. He still wanted to be Ironborn, but he was detached from all instruction in their ways. He learned war, diplomacy, justice, and management from Eddard Stark. Instead of a squid in wolf's clothing, he became more of a wolf in squid's clothing.

Just my two cents.

Edit: My analysis may be wrong... it's not the first time, nor will it be the last. But I'm noticing similarities in Sandor's and Arya's paths. Sandor hates knights, but knows all their teachings. Arya hates losing her identity, yet learns all she can from the Faceless Men. Sandor killed his first man at the age of twelve. Arya killed her first man at the age of nine or ten. Sandor says, "Killing is the sweetest thing there is." Arya takes enjoyment in killing for vengeance and in delivering the gift of the Red God. Sandor hates his older brother and longs to kill him. Arya hates her older sister and used to want to kill her. Both really desire an apology from their sibling and to be recognized as an equal. Both are now in religious houses...

 

[Tywin]

Ty, yes. I am assuming that the organizations, groups, and societies of ASOIAF have this much in common with us.

A friend wanted me to read From Baghdad with Love. So I did. The most interesting part of the book, was the author's description of U.S. Marine training. He wrote that the actual percentage of U.S. combat infantry during WW2 who actually took aim at a human target and fired is one in ten. This rose to two in ten in Korea, but was over seven in ten in Vietnam. The account for the huge jump is to more rigorous training methods, especially the use of human silhouette targets instead of the old bullseye. I've never served in the military and my memory may be hazy on the percentages quoted in the book, but the point is that humans are not created to be killing machines... they have to be taught how to not see the enemy as a human, but just as a target.

The often quoted "only one in ten Soldiers fired on the enemy" statistic comes from BG SLA Marshall's The Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation, which he wrote after WW2. Like nearly everything written by SLA Marshall, his data is extremely suspect. He references his own conversations with combat Soldiers during WW2 but doesn't provide any data. Numerous studies have shown that his data is incorrect (as in when you actually interview veterans from WW2 and record the data you find that they universally fired on the enemy). Bottom line is that Marshall was full of ****, but his claims keep getting regurgitated and reworked as though we have some kind of program to turn us into killbots or something. Our pop-up target ranges train us to identify a target, acquire a sight picture, and fire before the target goes down... they don't make us lose our humanity or anything like that.

Neither a society, an army, a team, nor a family teach without a desired result in mind. They teach methodology that will directly benefit the group.

Methodology or learning techniques like your earlier examples are not the same as eliminating your persona.

Will they make her swear an oath? How will they know she'll be obedient? In ASOIAF, like ancient and medieval times (and not so unlike our own), people take vows to ensure their behavior. In the ASOS prologue, how did the Old Bear get his men ready for battle against overwhelming odds? "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come."

An oath deals with your actions, not with your identity. "I swear that I will..."

Edit: My analysis may be wrong... it's not the first time, nor will it be the last. But I'm noticing similarities in Sandor's and Arya's paths. Sandor hates knights, but knows all their teachings. Arya hates losing her identity, yet learns all she can from the Faceless Men. Sandor killed his first man at the age of twelve. Arya killed her first man at the age of nine or ten. Sandor says, "Killing is the sweetest thing there is." Arya takes enjoyment in killing for vengeance and in delivering the gift of the Red God. Sandor hates his older brother and longs to kill him. Arya hates her older sister and used to want to kill her. Both really desire an apology from their sibling and to be recognized as an equal. Both are now in religious houses...

Very interesting correlations between Arya and Sandor that I hadn't noticed before.

Back to the original point: we still don't know if the faceless men actually want Arya to become 'no one' on the inside, or if they are just trying to teach her the skill to appear to be 'no one' on the outside.