We Have Always Fought

A very interesting article, FH. I'll move it over to GWD, though, as I think this is one for our writers to bear in mind, more than our readers.
 
Oh dear, I'm about to make myself sound like a tw*t...

While I agree she makes a very good point, and it's good to hear people talking about the issue so frankly, I've always known that women have fought (who hasn't heard of Boudicca?) and I've known for a fairly long time that before all this Victorian prudishness women had a lot more to do with life and society than we apparently give them credit for now. In some ways ancient society was a lot more tolerable than our modern society now (though, admittedly, not in a lot of ways). There are plenty of places in the world which have tribes that run matriarchal societies too.

Also this line really troubled me: "I often tell people that I’m the biggest self-aware misogynist I know." Um, OK? Does that make it all right, then? The cannibalistic llama was a very laboured metaphor as well and I didn't quite get the insistence on repetition. I'm not thick, you know.

(Also, until I got to the end I thought this was a man writing it - the 'boyfriend' reference did trip me up though - but I don't know if that says more about me or her).

Just, eh, not impressed really. Although, I liked Gumboot's link much better, there was a lot less faffing around.
 
I absolutely agree with the sentiments but -- and it is a big but -- it's like we have to go out of our way to avoid stereotypes and placing a woman as someone's whatever.

I'm a woman: I'm my mother's daughter, my brothers' sister, my husband's wife, my childrens' mother. There is no problem with me being any of these things in fiction, or in anything else. In fact, not to be these things makes a farce of characterisation.

Where, perhaps, I have more of a problem is how often men aren't presented in the same way: A mother's son. Too often, our male protagonists are off battling the powers of evil (or whatever, the coffee machine...) without reference to who is important to them, who has shaped them, who matters to them. I think this is especially true of sci fi, but that's my current obsession, the lack of strong relationship in some of the genre. Instead, it's about the mission, the plot and not the stakes for the person.

Eg (and I'm just going to take the three most recent genre books I have read, without selection or agenda and look at the protagonists):

Logen Ninefingers in the Blade Itself -- his family are referenced, but are dead. They have no interaction with him. He mentions no wife (that I recall). Glotka - we know a little more about this, but there is no real exploration of the fall out from his past on his family. Jezal has a relationship with a woman who is introduced first and foremost as someone else's sister (although to be fair, she's a pretty good secondary character and far from one dimensional).

The Shining Girls -- Kirby is shown with her family relationships, we see her with her mother, hear her mother's response to her trauma, see the interplay. Dan, we hear of his ex-wife, but we don't know him outside of his interactions with Kirby/work.

The Dome (which I reread last week) -- Barbie the loner, with no one to define him. No mother mentioned, no father, no children. Just his past work and the friends around him.

Now, maybe I'm unlucky and just have picked a rubbish selection, but this to me is unreal -- that a man should not be defined by who he is touched by, who he belongs to. It makes them less than real, three dimensional characters. So, whilst I absolutely agree a woman should not be in something as X's girlfriend if she has a role of her own to play and is central, I think we shouldn't be afraid of making her someone's mum, wife or daughter, especially if this is some of what drives her actions. And, I think, we need to see this more in male protagonists, and that half the problem lies in how they're presented. ?
 
Apart from being a bit full of herself the article seems sound enough. I was more moved however by her telling of peoples indifference or unwillingness to move until someone else took that first step.

Now I've always said people should write the characters they want to write. The characters that work for the story. Don't add a female character just to even it out.

At the same time I'm very much aware of womens lack of pressence in todays entertainment and the misrepresentation they have to withstand when they are let in.

It usually puts me in the situation where I sound like a jerk and know full well that I'm doing it.

It also gave me quite a shock recently when I started writing a novel recently and found my two main characters to be female. Not to fill some quota but because those were the characters that invaded my headspace at the time. It's weird how that happens sometimes.
 
I tend to agree, allmywires. But then we are on a British sci-fi and fantasy forum, so we're probably more familiar with history than your average American...

Terry Jones did a fantasy series on Medieval Life that explored a bunch of myths about the period and then showed how wrong they were. The episode on the role of women in the Middle Ages was pretty fascinating, even to someone like me who was pretty familiar with the reality that the oppression of women really kicked off in earnest in the Renaissance, not the Middle Ages.

The classic thing you hear is women getting married off to total strangers against their will, but people seem to often forget that the sons got married off to total strangers against their will too. And that was only the eldest son, if you're talking about the nobility. I'd much rather have been a noble daughter in medieval Europe than a noble second or third son.
 
Too often, our male protagonists are off battling the powers of evil (or whatever, the coffee machine...) without reference to who is important to them, who has shaped them, who matters to them. I think this is especially true of sci fi, but that's my current obsession, the lack of strong relationship in some of the genre. Instead, it's about the mission, the plot and not the stakes for the person.

snip
So, whilst I absolutely agree a woman should not be in something as X's girlfriend if she has a role of her own to play and is central, I think we shouldn't be afraid of making her someone's mum, wife or daughter, especially if this is some of what drives her actions. And, I think, we need to see this more in male protagonists, and that half the problem lies in how they're presented. ?

Interesting - made me suddenly think of Bujold. Starting with her Sharing Knife books (and then all her other books) but one thing her characters cannot get away from is their families. (A few don't have families but they do tend to have friends, employers etc.) Sharing Knife in particular most definitely includes a lot about the impact of families and neighbours and reliance on families and neighbours, whether or not you like them.
 
There is one thing you shouldn't forget in making female soldiers.

A woman, given the usual circumstances, takes 9 months to make one person.

One man can impregnate several thousand women. Genghis Khan, according to recent DNA research, is very likely a several generations grandfather to 1/12 of the present population of Asia or several million people.

If you kill off up to 90% of the males your population will recover in a very few generations. If you kill off all the women, your population may never recover. The two best examples of this I know of are, respectively, a 19thc war in Patagonia (actually some kind of three sided conflict involving Argentina, Uruquay and Brazil) and in the history of Iraq after Hulagu Khan killed everyone and everything in this one area, right down to dogs and cats, to avenge the death of his son. (We hear a lot about groups massacring everyone but it's actually very seldom they kill all the good looking women rather than take them into slavery, though it happens).

I am NOT trying to disagree with the article cited, but it is a fact of statistics/demographics that authors shouldn't just ignore if they're going to have entire female populations fighting alongside the men.

I also sort of wonder that the author of the article was so ill-informed about the prevalence of women in all traditionally "male" roles and even that she used war and warriors as her examples so much. She somehow got to college without reading The Chalice and the Blade?
 
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Okay I'm going to risk sticking my size 13 feet in here! And you probably won't like it :eek:

Joan makes a very, very good point. In a relatively small community (say several hundred) the loss of a woman is far, far more critical to the community's long term survival than the loss of a man. This is a simple biological fact. Evolution seems to have figured this out as well; programming male humans with a more aggressive nature and female humans with a more nurturing nature. And, no doubt, this is one of the reasons that men tend to be physically larger and stronger than women. Now I'm no psychologist/anthropologist so I can't quote studies etc. but I believe this has been well researched over the years. And even in our modern society top female atheletes struggle to achieve similar feats of speed and strength to similar level male atheletes.

So generally speaking men are more likely to want to fight, or be soldiers/warriors than women and more able to, at least for physical fighting. As far as I'm aware this is hard wired into our species.

Of course there have always been and will always be exceptions to this but, as a general rule, like it or not, I believe this is more or less correct.

If you are looking at SF rather than fantasy then physical strength is a much less important factor with warfare becoming ever more remote in its nature. However the natural aggression may still be an issue.

Sorry if that upsets anyone but that's how it appears to me.
 
Mostly @ Vertigo. Don't entirely agree with your points -

1. I think the "exceptions to the rule" are more a sizeable minority, rather than isolated instances.

2. Its very difficult to sort out the effects of nature and nurture - social pressure is a big thing. Its also pretty recent in the UK for women to be in the frontline in the armed forces, and I have no idea as to the statistics on numbers.

3. I think women can be as aggressive as men, but whether through nature or nurture, the expression of the aggression may not be as directly physical and obviously aggressive as for men. Taking a fantasy type situation - for a small woman to fell a large man, she could have learnt to kick his feet from under him by studying a martial art, or she could put oil on the stairs so he falls down them, or she could poison him through the nice meal she cooked him.

4. Women can do heroic feats in defence of their children. (So can men of course). There are instances of say a woman seeing their kid caught under an overturned car and being able to lift it clear in a big burst of adrenalin - then not be able to stand when it wears off due to having strained all their muscles.

Other than that, Joan's point about women and breeding. Once again I mention Bujold :) Sharing Knife has a requirement on all the Riders to have a child of their own, relatively early in life, which takes the young women out of the patrol for part of their adult life, but of course the men can still go off on patrol having married.
 
I take your points Montero and agree with them to some extent. I'm certainly not suggesting that women can't fight, that would be silly. However I think the research shows men do have more aggression (I'm almost certain that research shows men are more competitive - and I would imagine the two are pretty closely tied). Of course there are, as I said, exceptions or even a sizeable minority (though I'm not convinced on the sizeable part) but in general we are programmed in this way by our evolution (and this is specifically based on research done into nature not nurture). And it takes a lot more than a few thousand years of civilistion to change evolution.

On your third point, of course a trained female fighter will have no trouble overcoming an untrained, larger and stonger male fighter. In fact when looking at unarmed combat a smaller physique can often be an advantage. Again I'm not saying that women can't or won't fight, just that, sadly I think*, men have a natural tendency towards such fighting that is not shared on anything like the same level by women.

*'sadly' as in sad that any of us have a tendency towards fighting.
 
I take your points Montero and agree with them to some extent. I'm certainly not suggesting that women can't fight, that would be silly. However I think the research shows men do have more aggression (I'm almost certain that research shows men are more competitive - and I would imagine the two are pretty closely tied). Of course there are, as I said, exceptions or even a sizeable minority (though I'm not convinced on the sizeable part) but in general we are programmed in this way by our evolution (and this is specifically based on research done into nature not nurture). And it takes a lot more than a few thousand years of civilistion to change evolution.

On your third point, of course a trained female fighter will have no trouble overcoming an untrained, larger and stonger male fighter. In fact when looking at unarmed combat a smaller physique can often be an advantage. Again I'm not saying that women can't or won't fight, just that, sadly I think*, men have a natural tendency towards such fighting that is not shared on anything like the same level by women.

*'sadly' as in sad that any of us have a tendency towards fighting.

Sadly? I respectfully disagree - because, IMHO, if people weren't biased towards fighting there probably wouldn't be any people.

Humans, compared to many and perhaps most of the animals with which we shared our ancestral home (the savannahs of Africa), are small, weak, slow and pitifully armed. We've made up for that with ingenuity, social organisation and viciousness - along with the tendency to bear grudges.

Why does the last matter? Well, consider. Most of the big predators avoid humans and don't hunt them, by preference - particularly lions and tigers, although incidents sometimes do happen. And why is that? Well, maybe it's because a lion (for example) that decides to have a human for lunch is very unlikely to breed thereafter. Even in the Stone Age.

Of course, the human instinct for using weapons is more dangerous than helpful now - but there hasn't been anything like long enough to breed it out of the gene pool.
 
I'm the type who says "blame society for everything!" so while I will accept that there are some evolutionary reasons for extra aggression in males, I don't think it's as wide as it would be without the extra social pressures.

Because we treat emotion in very different ways for men and women -- almost internally and externally. For men it is valid for them to be aggressive, assertive, proud, a go-getter. A woman displaying such is usually labelled a bitch. Women's emotions are more seen as talking things through, crying, internalising it (and usually get labelled as weak because of it...can't win either way :rolleyes: )

And it's from a very young age. Soon enough girls will be told to stop fighting, to stop rolling around, to generally stop doing anything rough. Boys on the other hand...well, they'll be told that annoying phrase "boys will be boys" and left to get on with it. And of course not to cry or whine because...that's what girls do.
 
I tend to agree, allmywires. But then we are on a British sci-fi and fantasy forum, so we're probably more familiar with history than your average American...

I think it might be better to say that, as we're on a sci-fi and fantasy forum, we are more familiar with history than your average person. Putting this in specifically national terms makes it seem as if you're saying something different, though I don't think you are (and certainly hope you are not).

It goes without saying that plenty of Americans, and particularly those who read fantasy, are also well-read in history. And there are lots of examples of specifically American "women who fought" as well--Calamity Jane, Annie Oakley, Bonnie Parker, Molly Pitcher, etc.
 
@Mirannan: you may have a point on the 'sadly' bit there! I guess I was saying sad that we're still that way. But then, as we both said, genes don't change much in a few thousand years. Incidentally I don't think it is true to say that humans are small, weak, slow and pitifully armed; I'm not sure that is true of our ancestors (or of most of the rest of the primate family). However our edge, once we moved from the trees to the savannah was endurance. We developed a very efficient two legged method of running, slower than most other animals, but it could be maintained for much, much longer. And it is thought that this was the key to our early success over our faster prey (along with cunning and the use of longer distance weapons like spears of course).

@HoopyFrood: it is always so difficult to separate nature from nurture and in this case I think the latter reinforces the former. Not an unlikely situation really; if males were selected by nature to be more effective fighters (and probably hunters as well) then society once it started evolving would naturally tend to enhance and strengthen that bias. And we all know how hard it is to change that sort of cultural bias. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done; just that it is hard and slow. And wouldn't it be so much better if we could change it the other way? Get men to do less fighting rather than get women to do more ;)
 
I take your points Montero and agree with them to some extent. I'm certainly not suggesting that women can't fight, that would be silly. However I think the research shows men do have more aggression (I'm almost certain that research shows men are more competitive - and I would imagine the two are pretty closely tied). Of course there are, as I said, exceptions or even a sizeable minority (though I'm not convinced on the sizeable part) but in general we are programmed in this way by our evolution (and this is specifically based on research done into nature not nurture). And it takes a lot more than a few thousand years of civilistion to change evolution.

I don't think anyone is arguing that women take up arms as frequently as men do. I think the argument is that women have, throughout history, taken up arms much more frequently than most people today realize.
 
Yes that's obviously true NF however I suspect that all-women armies, regiments, companies, etc. or even ones with comparable numbers of men and women were probably pretty rare. Again, there are obvious exceptions to this, but seriously, how many women were actually fighting in the ancient armies of Rome, Egypt, China, India, etc. as compared to men. Or to take more primitive tibal cultures; women would, I'm sure, fight in defense of their village, but I'm also pretty sure the raiding parties of those ancient tribes would have been almost exclusively male. Think about primitive tribal groups that we have had direct experience of in the last few hundred years: native Americans, African tribes like the Masai, South American natives, Indonesian tribes etc.; I don't believe we have found any that use significant numbers of women in their normal 'warfare.'

Personally I think it far more realistic to have large numbers of women soldiers in SF rather than in F.
 
But Fantasy! Sure there's been a move towards "realistic" fantasy but the very word includes things that are improbable and different to our own world and experiences. And to go along a line of agrument that I think Scott Lynch brought up...why can we accept dragons and magic and all the rest of it but we argue so much about what women might or might not be able to do, what roles they might have?
 

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