Sf and women writers

[Jo Zebedee]

Interesting blog post. Be warned, the comments that follow have some strong language and boggle the mind.

http://www.annaguirre.com/archives/2013/06/02/this-week-in-sf/


And, um, this thread already covers it:

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/541249-declare-yourselves-openly.html

 

[Ursa major]

I've just looked Ann Aguirre up on Wiki. Unbelievable as it sounds, she seems to write books even faster than you do.

 

[Brian G Turner]

And, um, this thread already covers it:

It's okay, I think this is a worthy thread in it's own right.

There have been various discussions about the role of women in SF in recent months - I think a good place to start would be Ian Sale's SF mistress works, which tries to raise the profile of women writers in SF:
http://sfmistressworks.wordpress.com/about/

 

[Bowler1]

I can’t say for SFF conferences as I’ve not been to any, but I’d not be too surprised if it were full of geeky guys and very few women. I would never condone or accept sexism, but it still exists – and possibly as a defence mechanism for the geeky guys. I know lots of girls who like SciFi, even before I discovered this site. I think there is a untapped readers market out there waiting to be exploited, and I’d like to think there are publishers brave enough to develop this market segment. The past, where men ruled SciFi is just that, the past. If a few of the die-hard are attending the conferences then as a female writer it’s something that may have to be confronted. I was disappoint to see that other professional writers seemed to be dismissive, and there is no excuse for that, writing is writing, and if you’ve been published that should be enough.

However, the tone of her post does not help her case. If it had been a matter of fact post, simply stating the facts, it would help her case more.

Springs, just carry on writing – the only thing that really counts is who buys your books (I’m sure you’ll get there) – the rest is background noise that you shouldn’t let get the better of you.

 

[alchemist]

She's angry, but on the face of it she has good reason to be. She also appears to have attracted some knobs.

Things will change, slowly but surely, and maybe the revelation of what this woman went through will help and make that kind of thing less acceptable in future.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I've just looked Ann Aguirre up on Wiki. Unbelievable as it sounds, she seems to write books even faster than you do.

I'm just getting into my stride... I did laugh at the comments about speed and that it equated the books were rubbish.... oh, dear.

It's okay, I think this is a worthy thread in it's own right.

There have been various discussions about the role of women in SF in recent months - I think a good place to start would be Ian Sale's SF mistress works, which tries to raise the profile of women writers in SF:
http://sfmistressworks.wordpress.com/about/

Ian's blog is fantastic, and a reminder that the genre is changing.

Things will change, slowly but surely, and maybe the revelation of what this woman went through will help and make that kind of thing less acceptable in future.

Let's hope so, it's only by challenging it we might break through the glass - should probably come up with a nice sf term for glass - ceiling. Bowler, thanks!

 

[Kissmequick]

However, the tone of her post does not help her case. If it had been a matter of fact post, simply stating the facts, it would help her case more.

Really? In what way? Honest question. What tone should she have then? What does tone matter when it's what she's discussing that's important? (see the tone argument)Should she be "quietly dignified the way a woman should"?* That's probably not what you meant, I'm sure, but content is important. Because if we don't shout, no one listens. If we DO shout -- they tell us to stop shouting and still don't listen to what we're saying. And after a while, well, you get a bit peeved off.

The only tone I got from her post was a great weariness and a determination not to be silent and take it any more. I think that's a GREAT tone.

Frankly if I'd experienced what she had and had emails like that, I'd have a bit of tone a well. But it would have had a lot more swears in it.

*what kicked all this stuff off at the SFWA - men being fairly sexist, reasonably minor, but then being called on it, and then decrying 'anonymous' complainers who put their name to the complaints and were shouted down on the forums, and instead of addressing the issue, complaiend women weren't behaving like Barbie, quiet and dignified and that pointing out problems = censorship and... Bugger dignified. They act like an arse, I will call them on it and I don't care if they don't like my tone, because it's what is said that matters.

 

[Bowler1]

Really? In what way? Honest question.

Frankly if I'd experienced what she had and had emails like that, I'd have a bit of tone a well. But it would have had a lot more swears in it.

It was the swearing that brought the tone down in my view. Don't get me wrong I'm no wall flower, but if someone is making professional complaints then keep it professional. If it's not kept professional, all you do is give away bullets that more than likely will be fired back at you.

An old expression - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:If_you_lie_down_with_dogs,_you_get_up_with_fleas

Don't sink to the low level of the sexists/bullies etc. no matter how tempted.

 

[iansales]

There have been various discussions about the role of women in SF in recent months - I think a good place to start would be Ian Sale's SF mistress works, which tries to raise the profile of women writers in SF:
http://sfmistressworks.wordpress.com/about/

Thanks, Brian. But can I have my full name back, please? The final "s" is part of it

Women have contributed greatly to science fiction for many decades, they have won awards, they have written best-selling novels... And they still do so. That's one reason I started up SF Mistressworks. For 21st-century women sf writers, see Daughters of Prometheus: http://daughtersofprometheus.wordpress.com/

This is not to say true parity exists, or that the current situation is in any way good. Not enough female sf writers - including award-winning ones - have contracts in this country. Genre review venues continue to review more books by men than by women. And there is still this dumb perception among many male readers that sf is not for women.

 

[iansales]

It was the swearing that brought the tone down in my view. Don't get me wrong I'm no wall flower, but if someone is making professional complaints then keep it professional. If it's not kept professional, all you do is give away bullets that more than likely will be fired back at you.

Please look up "tone argument".

 

[Bowler1]

Please look up "tone argument".

I have done, and I can see I've stepped into a minefield here. My intent was not that someone should stay silent, or say things nicely before being heard. I appreciate for some people shouting back may be all the other person understands - and many protest movements had to do just that to acheive their goals. But I can list a few successful protest movements that remained steadfast in not lowering their standards and succeed just as well. That's all I was trting to say - as I tiptoe carefully to the edge of one really large minefield, hoping to escape alive!

 

[EloiseA]

Good to see you here Ian, I'm a great fan of SF Mistressworks.

 

[iansales]

I have done, and I can see I've stepped into a minefield here. My intent was not that someone should stay silent, or say things nicely before being heard. I appreciate for some people shouting back may be all the other person understands - and many protest movements had to do just that to acheive their goals. But I can list a few successful protest movements that remained steadfast in not lowering their standards and succeed just as well. That's all I was trting to say - as I tiptoe carefully to the edge of one really large minefield, hoping to escape alive!

I thought you ought to be aware of what it is. Commenting on tone is a common derailing technique.

 

[iansales]

Good to see you here Ian, I'm a great fan of SF Mistressworks.

Thanks I've been around on here for several years but I recently dialled back my level of engagement after getting into too many arguments

 

[Bowler1]

No Comment!!!

 

[Kissmequick]

I thought you ought to be aware of what it is. Commenting on tone is a common derailing technique.

Exactly -- while I don't think that's what Bowler was trying to do, it is a) a common way to avoid the actual problem and sweep it under the carpet and b) when being nice and polite (as say Ann Aguirre was for a long time) gets you nothing but more and more and MORE of the same, what does that leave you to do? And frankly, I don't see how swearing is equal to what is being complained about (and certainly not to the abusive emails Ann received, which swore quite copiously, among other things) Besides, the post was on a bog, not in a formal letter. Plenty of professionals swear on their blogs and don't called on tone. I would call unprofessional the behaviour she's had to put up with, not complaining about it in any way she sees fit.


Like I said -- if we don't shout no one listens. If we do shout, people concentrate on the shouting, and not on what we're saying.

It's a no win scenario. So I can forgive a bit of tone there. Because sometimes people need to hear what douchebags they've been.

PS: If swearing is a problem and you think it lowers the tone, well, here is Stephen Fry on The Joys of Swearing. Note - there will be rude words.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Thanks, Brian. But can I have my full name back, please? The final "s" is part of it

Women have contributed greatly to science fiction for many decades, they have won awards, they have written best-selling novels... And they still do so. That's one reason I started up SF Mistressworks. For 21st-century women sf writers, see Daughters of Prometheus: http://daughtersofprometheus.wordpress.com/

This is not to say true parity exists, or that the current situation is in any way good. Not enough female sf writers - including award-winning ones - have contracts in this country. Genre review venues continue to review more books by men than by women. And there is still this dumb perception among many male readers that sf is not for women.

Funny...I never realized you were the person behind SF Mistressworks! Good and necessary stuff, as the SF Masterworks series, though quality, is way too slanted towards male writers.

Looking more broadly, I think SF/F is definitely getting more inclusive and less overtly gendered, but there's still a long way to go before the old prejudices and institutionalized disparities have been dealt with.

Sometimes these can shackle you even when you have the best of intentions. When I recently started archiving our reviews, I saw that they were, on balance, overwhelmingly written by male writers. This is, in part, because we weren't thinking about it and in part due to what publishers send us. It's something we're working to correct, not because we think "parity" is the goal but because we know this means we're missing out on lots of great fiction, and that's self-defeating.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I haven't been to an SF convention in ... um (trying to kick tired brain into gear) ... five or six years, I think. But before that I was going to conventions on a more or less regular basis since the early '70's and there were plenty of women going to them. I imagine it is still the same. I never paused to consider the numbers, so the male/female ratio could have been too extreme. I remember lots of married couples and lots of families. But except for two large conventions all of these were in California. It may be different in other parts of the US.

So as readers and convention-goers, there were plenty of women, but it was quite different as to the number of female writers, and to the amount of respect paid to their work. But the last part has been true in Fantasy, also, in spite of the fact that there are so many, many women writing it.

 

[Mouse]

Oh my godfathers. Just read it from a link on Twitter and can't believe that hate mail she's getting! What the hell's wrong with people?

I've been to plenty of SFF cons and they've all been quite equal with men and women, quite equal with men and women on the panels, and everything's all been nice, thankfully. But bloody hell.

Don't think there's anything wrong with her 'tone' in the blog. She has a better temper than me that's for certain.

Blimey Charlie.

 

[Kissmequick]

I've been to plenty of SFF cons and they've all been quite equal with men and women, quite equal with men and women on the panels, and everything's all been nice, thankfully. But bloody hell.

There was a bit of a hoo-ha over here about gender parity on panels a couple of years ago (China Meiville walked out on a panel that featured no women in protest, then others followed and....) which gave everyone a bit of a wakeup call and got things changing. Still a way to go though.

But while there are some characters about I've never experienced anything like what Ann did. Most of the male SFF writers are (at least in public!) nothing short of charming and pleasant, and nowhere near as -- mostly not at all -- dismissive or outright offensive. At least the ones I've interacted with. (I have, however seen it plenty in other areas, just not in the general SFF con-dom, so I'm sure that it can and does happen.)

That doesn't mean the British equivalent doesn't have it's problems, but I think they might be different ones (or different in specifics).