It's hugely risky for an author to just write off central characters like that so here's my question - a gutsy move or totally disappointing?
Gutsy. Gritty. Brilliant.
If your favorite character is killed, then it is assuredly disappointing. But if your faves survive, then you are even more emotionally involved in their struggles... "Eddard? Drogo? Talisa? Robb? Catelyn? Oh no! That means ______ could be next!"
I'm on the edge of my seat reading about my faves. One of my faves has been made a slave.... One has disappeared and is presumed abducted with the intention of execution... Another favorite has become a drunk and a slaver and a slave... One has been left leaderless and is now playing the Game... And one was betrayed and killed... I'm not saying they're major characters, they're my faves.
In fact one of my faves died in the Red Wedding... but she never made it from print to the show. She only has a few spoken lines in the books. I'm not going to spoil it in case you read the books.
I think the emotional impact of the Red Wedding is worse in the TV series than the books, for a number of reasons.
...if you make it past the Red Wedding there's no turning back, you have no choice but to see the story to its end.
Agreed.
Christopher, earlier I used the term POV (point of view). The books feature Martin's use of one particular character's POV for each chapter. For example, the Red Wedding was told exclusively through the eyes of Catelyn and Arya. We never see tender moments between Robb and Talisa. We only get Catelyn's relaxation when she thinks they've pulled it off and then her horror when she realizes they've been duped. And Arya only sees the chaos of the camp up until the point she gets the Hound's axe to her head. I seriously thought he might have killed her when I first read that.
I'll tell you the POVs in the first three books.
AGOT: Eddard, Catelyn, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, and Daenerys.
ACOK: Catelyn, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Daenerys, Davos, and Theon.
ASOS: Catelyn, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Daenerys, Davos, Theon, Jaime, and Samwell.
From this you'll notice that we never get Jaime's conceptions and motivations until the third book. And we never get Tywin's, Joffrey's, Cersei's or Robert's! If a conversation on the show happens without one of the above POV characters in it, then it was made up for the show.
Let me just say that the conversation between Catelyn and Jaime in the Riverrun dungeons and then Jaime's tale to Brienne in the Harrehal baths drastically altered my understanding of the story. Jaime went from being a despised villain to my favorite character. I'm not saying he's not a villain, but understanding his motivations makes him infinitely interesting.
My issue now is, where are all the good guys? Or maybe there just aren't that many good guys in GoT?
Now... that is a great question! Eddard was honorable. Eddard was just. But after Jaime's POVs, we find that Eddard was quick to judge... and misjudge. This is compounded by the vast number of questions left from Eddard's POV after his death. Eddard's memories and dreams haunted him... in fact, he seems to have had a few secrets. These involved his whereabouts during the rebellion, his sister's death, Jon's mother...
But since Eddard and Robb are dead, are there any honorable men in Westeros to start the fourth season? Jon is in the North, Barristan is with Dany, Tyrion is... well, I can't give that away, Sam is the North, Bran is just a kid, Podrick Payne is... well, he's just Pod.... Loras is around, Jaime is also around... Kevan still serves, and then there are the Sparrows.
Maybe your question really is this... "Is there anyone to mete justice to the Lannisters and get revenge for the Starks?" And the answer is... maybe. There's Brienne, Pod, Stannis, Davos, Daenerys, Barristan, Varys, Littlefinger, and Arya. But then again, you've never met Oberyn, Doran, Arianne, and Quentyn, the Sand Snakes, Euron and Victarion... Areo Hotah, Arys Oakheart, Strong Belwas... Shavepate, the Green Grace, Randyll Tarly, Griff, and Young Griff, Lady Falyse and Ser Balman, Marillion and Alayne, the Cat of the Canals, the Kindly Old Man and the Waif, Dalla and Val, and I can't forget Qyburn's masterpiece.
But the bad news is that.... there are even more villains and despicable characters that HBO has not shown or barely shown. Rorge, Biter, Vargo Hoat, Varamyr, Styr, Reek, Lem, Red Ronnet, Ser Dontos, and Ser Mandon, and that's just in the first three books.
I'm trying to answer your questions, but it's hard not to spoil the story... I don't think I have, but if I have... I apologize.
when I read the books, I actually didnt like Catelyn as she was too 'up herself'.... and I felt that GRRM wanted you to like her, but i couldn't - I dont think she was a 'good guy'
Again with Tyrion (but the other way round)
I think the show is more sympathetic to Catelyn than the books are. Catelyn is honorable. She does her duty. She does what she can to protect her family. And as long as she's able to objectively view events, she is wise. But her problem is that she gets quickly caught up in events and becomes emotionally involved and this destroys her objectivity in her decisions... and she becomes completely reactionary to the Lannisters. She ends up having a hand in the destruction of her own family. It is tragic. I know the reason I hate Catelyn... and it may be the same reason you hate her...
I see myself in her.
I can objectively look at my friends' problems and offer sage advice. And yet, I have sometimes blundered from one disaster to another when dealing with my own life. An illness in the family led to a lost job, a deceased pet, a failed marriage, and another lost job. If I'd made a better decision at the beginning, all the rest might have fallen into place.
As to the question of whether there are still some good guys left... You might be suprised to find some "good guys" in unexpected places. Failing that we still have:
Jon
Sam
Dany
Jorah
Barristan
Arya
Bran
Rickon
Blackfish
Sansa - if she ever does anything
Tyrion - depending on perspective
Brienne - again, perspective
The Hound - Ditto
Margery and the rest of the Tyrell Brood
Arsten, if you think Tyrion's goodness depends upon a certain perspective, then how can you call Jorah and Arya good? And the Hound? Seriously? You've got to have Jaime on that list before the Hound!
