A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe, Second Edition

[Brian G Turner]

Am reading this and finding it to be quite a brilliant resource for writing mediaeval fantasy with realism in mind:
e23: A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe, Second Edition

I've been reading living history books to get an idea of daily life, mining sections for relevant information.

Yet this Steve Jackson book sets it all out simply and concise.

The $15 price tag is worth it for the first chapter alone on the social structure of mediaeval rural society.

UPDATE: There's a free sample of the city section available here: http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=XRPFREE1

 

[thaddeus6th]

Hmm. Just scanned the preview document, for the contents, and that looks pretty intriguing.

I might buy it.

I bought a few other books regarding history to try and ensure my WIP doesn't make any howlers, but I'm not going to be strictly bound by history. From the preview, that does look like something that's interesting in itself and very useful for world-building.

How far into it are you?

 

[Brian G Turner]

So far, it's a text book on how to worldbuild a mediaeval society from scratch. Something history books don't normally cover!

I've only finished the first chapter, but it's so succint. There's an explanation of various different positions in the manor and village (beadle and hayward were ones I'd never picked up before, and I hadn't grasped properly what a reeve might be but is clearly explained here).

There's also a table listing various fines villagers would be expected to pay their manor lord - courtesy names, who it applied to, and a basic cost in silver pieces (convert to your own economic system).

Interestingly enough, although it's written for fantasy writing with magic, they do cover a lot of ordinary magic that has an easy correlation with folklore and superstition IMO. For example, magic users using basic spells to help crop yields or sow seeds faster.

There are a couple of small points I'd take issue with - for example, it uses the word "peasant" freely, but then claims cotters are the lowest of the serfs. In my history reading so far, "peasant" is simply a designation for the poor by the rich, and cotter is a word villagers might ordinarily use to describe themselves without prejudice.

On saying that, though, it really underlines the different social classes that might exist even within a village itself. I hadn't realised how complex it could be until now.

And the chapter headings as well - I saw the title "Patron god of the city" and realised I was missing a whole layer I'd never considered before. Just from that title.

 

[Abernovo]

Brian, I'm not sure if this will be of any use to you.

Peasant comes from country dweller, I thought. From Pais - region in French. It has got a very negative usage now. Oddly, 'pagan' also referred to rural people (pagani in Latin), and was used by early churchmen to denigrate the old religions, by dismissing the followers as simple, uneducated yokels. How words can be twisted.

Cotter I was always told referred to someone with lands surrounding a cottage. This might be more modern, as it mainly comes from the difference between crofters, who used wider areas of land, and cotters, who had access to little more than a large garden.

It looks like an interesting book from your description.

 

[Gumboot]

There are a couple of small points I'd take issue with - for example, it uses the word "peasant" freely, but then claims cotters are the lowest of the serfs. In my history reading so far, "peasant" is simply a designation for the poor by the rich, and cotter is a word villagers might ordinarily use to describe themselves without prejudice.

All of these titles are somewhat problematic for medieval "peasants" because none of them are medieval terms (even "serf" and "peasant" only entered English from the French in the late middle ages). In medieval times latin terms like servus and nativus were used, or in England anglo-saxon terms like villein and thrall.

 

[sknox]

Gumboot has it right. And Marc Bloch wrote a brilliant essay on how tricky a word like servus could be in the documents (anything from slave to serf).

But we don't need to worry too much about the finer points. I love Steve Jackson and he does good work. All that medieval rural stuff is specifically English and post-Conquest England at that. As diverse and rich a culture as you see portrayed there, the picture is even more varied when you look at the Continent as well.

But, again, why worry? Grab freely from any source. I love that Jackson has written something specifically for fantasy world builders. I am myself writing seed articles for my blog that will be along the same lines--practical historical information intended to serve as kindling for ideas. It's definitely something that's been missing as a resource for writers of fantasy, especially the quasi-medieval flavor (my personal favorite).

Oh, btw, a good traditional historical source for rural medieval society is G.G. Coulton's "The Medieval Village" (in fact, pretty much just 13thc England).

 

[Gumboot]

Gumboot has it right. And Marc Bloch wrote a brilliant essay on how tricky a word like servus could be in the documents (anything from slave to serf).

But we don't need to worry too much about the finer points. I love Steve Jackson and he does good work. All that medieval rural stuff is specifically English and post-Conquest England at that. As diverse and rich a culture as you see portrayed there, the picture is even more varied when you look at the Continent as well.

But, again, why worry? Grab freely from any source. I love that Jackson has written something specifically for fantasy world builders. I am myself writing seed articles for my blog that will be along the same lines--practical historical information intended to serve as kindling for ideas. It's definitely something that's been missing as a resource for writers of fantasy, especially the quasi-medieval flavor (my personal favorite).

Oh, btw, a good traditional historical source for rural medieval society is G.G. Coulton's "The Medieval Village" (in fact, pretty much just 13thc England).

I think, given the average reader's ignorance of the precise meaning of these various terms, you can probably get away with your own interpretations as long as you establish the meaning in your world pretty early on. I use both "County" and "Riding" and the title "Viscount" in different ways to the historical words, and haven't run into any issues with it because I make it clear what those terms mean in my world.

 

[Sapheron]

e23: Grain Into Gold

This link leads to 'Grain to Gold' which was put together by some history buffs who were into DnD. I found it a very interesting read, mostly focusing on the lives and issues of historical peasants. It's out there for free if you look hard enough, though I can't remember where I found it.

 

[JoanDrake]

It's always been my understanding that, historically, you have to be very careful with peasant designations. There were serfs, villeins, even freeholders. Some peasants were actually pretty well off, if not rich. However, this varied widely from country to country and time to time.

The book sounds very interesting for fantasy gamers but seems to beg the question of why shouldn't you just make it up yourself if you're not hoping to gain verisimilitude through a detailed knowledge of actual medieval customs.

 

[Montero]

Anything on crops in it?

As in what was planted, when, harvest time, storage, volumes of storage needed and the like?

 

[thaddeus6th]

Montero, hope you don't mind me jumping in.

Two out of three furlongs (strips within a field) were planted with some sort of corn, wheat, oats and barley usually, with the third left fallow, during which it was grazed by cattle, sheep, goats or pigs. - That's according to the very enjoyable, and useful, The Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England.

From my own very limited experience, certain crops could be double-harvested (ie planted, harvest and done again) within a season. Radishes seem to fall into this category, whereas parsnips take much longer.

 

[Montero]

Thanks T.

As a former 17th century re-enactor, I've got some ideas, just not the full load. Fragments more than the full cycle - so looking for that.

For those looking for info, this is useful from 17th century - farm with its own fields, not strip farmed and shared, but a lot of techniques would be similar.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000BND09Y/?tag=brite-21

There were also field peas - short peas not needing a frame to grow on - they grew them in the DVD above.

Thinking also about hay, other winter forage, salting meat, coppicing wood, herding pigs in woodland etc.

Were root veg field grown or garden grown?

I do know in 17th century england that all major towns had market garden areas around them - extensive market gardens grown for the nearby city markets.

 

[Abernovo]

There were also field peas - short peas not needing a frame to grow on - they grew them in the DVD above.

Thinking also about hay, other winter forage, salting meat, coppicing wood, herding pigs in woodland etc.

Were root veg field grown or garden grown?

I do know in 17th century england that all major towns had market garden areas around them - extensive market gardens grown for the nearby city markets.

Don't forget about smoking meat, Montero. Drying could also be used -- it was used in St Kilda, which isn't the driest climate in the world.

Coppicing wood is a good way of providing fuel and thin rods, for making things such as wattle.

Pigs were often kept in woodlands where they could forage nuts and roots, but the edges of woodlands and sheltered fields have long been used for sheep and cattle. Energy not used shivering in the rain, wind, and snow could be used for building muscle (meat).

Root vegetables can be grown in fields and gardens. They were vital parts of the diet at many of the time.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Anything on crops in it?

As in what was planted, when, harvest time, storage, volumes of storage needed and the like?

Yep, lots.

It has a table showing an agricultural calendar describing which crops would be planted/harvested at which time.

It also covers seed to yield ratios, general yield per acre, amount of ploughing required, number of workers and people it would sustain, etc etc etc.

There are a few details here and there I would challenge - but I think as a general guide it really is an excellent resource. Simply add a couple of mediaeval period books for additional context and a sense of how different aspects of society changed or evolved - and you could hit the ground running.

What really comes across is how complex mediaeval society is - but while reading Chaucer illustrates that, this book explains the different levels: the where, what, why, how.

It's a D&D manual for building a mediaeval culture, and is very rich in detail for anyone to world build with.

I'm currently on the section for cities. I stopped making notes ages ago as there's so much information. Instead I'm either going to print it out as a constant reference, or else simply write my own version for my own world as a sourcebook to work with. I'll decide when I finish.

 

[Montero]

Thanks

Daft question. Its been a while since I bought anything in dollars. Is there an extra charge?

 

[Brian G Turner]

I'm not sure - my business buys a few things in dollars, and sometimes I get charged something like 35p for a $15 transaction on the credit card. I haven't checked in this instance, though.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Just to say I was looking through the site, and just found the section on cities is available as a free sample download:
e23: A Magical Medieval City Guide

 

[thaddeus6th]

Ah, excellent. I'll give that a look when I've got a bit of spare time.