Who does Varys work for?

[svalbard]

I always thought Varys was a man for the Kingdom first and then the Targs. Then a few things got me thinking about it and the way Martin use misdirection throughout the series.

Varys in AGOT has a conversation with Ned about loyalty to the land, to the Kingdom. Which lends the reader a sympathic view of Varys.

In ASOS Varys helps Tyrion escape and mayhap he gently nudges Tyrion in the diection of Tywin knowing full well what he will find there. It also led to the thought that if he could get Tyrion out, Varys could have sprung Ned aswell. But that would have ended the War of the Five Kings rather swiftly with Ned leading the North instead of Robb. Something that Varys would not have wanted.

And Viserys and Dany. Maybe it was always Aegon that Varys wanted on the throne and not our erstwhile Mother of Dragons.

My point is...that I do not know really.

The fun part of this was that I was discussing this with a friend last night. A long, serious conversation about the what ifs and maybes of events that could have happened in a made up world.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Varys does come across as interested in protecting the realm - certainly in that POV with Ned when he hints at the danger to Robert.

I wondered why Varys offered no support to Ned when Cersei faced him - but Littlefinger made the argument that if Stannis was king the realm would bleed as Stannis took revenge for perceived slights in the Targ war.

If Varys is consistent he would not want that, and perhaps why he never tried to save Ned.

 

[chopper]

Varys works for Varys

 

[svalbard]

Varys does come across as interested in protecting the realm - certainly in that POV with Ned when he hints at the danger to Robert.

I wondered why Varys offered no support to Ned when Cersei faced him - but Littlefinger made the argument that if Stannis was king the realm would bleed as Stannis took revenge for perceived slights in the Targ war.

If Varys is consistent he would not want that, and perhaps why he never tried to save Ned.

Here is my problem. I do not think Varys is consistant. Why the charade of summoning Kevan Lannister at the end of ADWD and killing him. Where is the logic in that apart from framing the Tyrells. Is that the plan. Sow discord and chaos so that Aegon has an easy path to the throne. If so I think Varys has miscalculated and that is very un Varyslike (is that one word).

Hah! Varys working for himself. I always liked that idea.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Varys never struck me as someone who cared much for the Lannisters in general (Tyrion excepted). Joffrey and Cersei were not good for the throne, but the armies of Casterly Rock were insistent on upholding their positions.

However, you do touch on a point where Varys talks with Lyrio when Arya overhears them - Varys is plainly holding out for the Targs to return at some point.

While I suggested Varys has "the realm" at heart, I would add that it's more a case of keeping the place together in some semblance for Dany to come back on rule. Possibly.

 

[Boaz]

If we take Varys at his word, it does not mean that he will choose the most convenient route. I'm sure he has a concept of a unified, peaceful, and prosperous Seven Kingdoms. I'm sure this ideal realm is governed by his ideal dynasty.... Valyrians, specifically Targaryens.

For those of you who have not finished ADWD or have forgotten, Varys has been notoriously unhelpful to Hands. Yes, Varys helped Jon Arryn bring Dorne into the fold, but that peace was good for the realm.... Dorne did not have a prayer of standing alone. And I'd guess that Varys was involved with Viserys' betrothal to Arianne.

He could have given Ser Hugh to Eddard. He could have told Eddard the truth about the Valyrian Steel dagger. He could have helped Eddard escape. He could have informed Tywin that murdering Joffrey had been discussed long before the trial. And he murdered Kevan...

I think that Tyrion is the only Hand that Varys seemed to actually assist to some degree. He kept Shae hidden... And secret. He kept many of Tyrion's secrets from Cersei. He also helped Tyrion escape and murder Tywin.

The Hands, Jon, Eddard, and Tywin were all capable men with visions of a strong and stable kingdom. Why did Varys at least not assist them more or at most let them fall? Because the leadership they provided had no room for Targaryens.

So why did he help Tyrion? Either because Tyrion's vision coincided with Varys' for a time... Or because that Varys believed that Tyrion could be brought around to Varys' way of thinking. Well... How could that happen? Aerys II...

Also, we are often told that Vays and Baelish dislike each other... that they strive to outmaneuver each other. But since we do not get either's POV, I'm not prepared to take this as fact.

Remember they cooperated to convince Catelyn that the dagger was Baelish's. The desired result of this was to push the Starks and Lannisters to a blood feud. In public and at the Council, they are seemingly opposites. But I think their interplay is to make it appear that they are both indispensable.

But the HBO series has me doubting.... We've seen private moments with Baelish and Varys and they seem to loathe the other. Is this imagination on the part of the writers or did GRRM tell them something?

Are Sansa and Harry Middlefinger's main plan? Or just a contingency plan in case the Targs get themselves killed?

 

[devilsgrin]

i'm definitely of the opinion that Varys works for Varys. And his plans and schemes seem to be coming to fruition quite nicely. He wants a Targ on the Iron Throne. Only the Dragons can keep the seven kingdoms from incessant war.

Aegon was always his main play. Dany his backup. A dashing hero, son of a noble prince and his tragically murdered bride, and the rightful heir to Aegon the Conqueror. And a "warrior-queen," overcoming all the odds, barbarians, poverty, exile, betrayal, etc.
Something to unite Targ loyalists (ie the Martells and Tyrells) and the on-the-fence players - Littlefinger perhaps, the Vale in general definitely, parts of the Riverlands... the Houses of the Crown lands for certain.
Aegon and/or Dany will eventually arrive in Westeros just in time to unite the kingdom against The Others, as the compromise candidate/s, returning the throne to the Targs, and preventing the annihilation of the seven kingdoms.

Varys, imho, IS a targ. Possibly a ******* of Aerion Targaryen during his exile in Lys. But i take his shaven head as an "Egg-like" clue, regardless. hiding the platinum blonde of house Targaryen. It also explains, somewhat, why he was chosen to offer up his... bits... for that sorcerers ritual (we are not told one way or the other, but i suspect the magician was a Priest of Rh'llor using the Blood (and flesh) of Kings).

I see all of Varys' machinations coming together - i personally think Varys is GRRM in-book. The secret puppetmaster controlling or influencing everything that happens.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

For those of you who have not finished ADWD or have forgotten, Varys has been notoriously unhelpful to Hands. Yes, Varys helped Jon Arryn bring Dorne into the fold, but that peace was good for the realm.... Dorne did not have a prayer of standing alone. And I'd guess that Varys was involved with Viserys' betrothal to Arianne.

He could have given Ser Hugh to Eddard. He could have told Eddard the truth about the Valyrian Steel dagger. He could have helped Eddard escape. He could have informed Tywin that murdering Joffrey had been discussed long before the trial. And he murdered Kevan...

I think that Tyrion is the only Hand that Varys seemed to actually assist to some degree. He kept Shae hidden... And secret. He kept many of Tyrion's secrets from Cersei. He also helped Tyrion escape and murder Tywin.

Boaz, When you lay it out like that, Varys HAS been incredibly unhelpful to Hands. He either stood aside and did nothing, or actively took part in every hands death since Jon Arryn (tyrion doesn't count because he was only acting-hand)

Also, we are often told that Vays and Baelish dislike each other... that they strive to outmaneuver each other. But since we do not get either's POV, I'm not prepared to take this as fact.

Remember they cooperated to convince Catelyn that the dagger was Baelish's. The desired result of this was to push the Starks and Lannisters to a blood feud. In public and at the Council, they are seemingly opposites. But I think their interplay is to make it appear that they are both indispensable.

But the HBO series has me doubting.... We've seen private moments with Baelish and Varys and they seem to loathe the other. Is this imagination on the part of the writers or did GRRM tell them something?

Are Sansa and Harry Middlefinger's main plan? Or just a contingency plan in case the Targs get themselves killed?

I'm not sure if how they act in the show is conclusive. In the show they still did both take part in duping Cat. their apparent distaste for each-other is quite possibly an act. In the show, we see private moments together but, as Littlefinger and varys are fond of pointing out, in the red keep, someone is ALWAYS listening. by now, they might have an unspoken understanding and, because we never see inside their heads, we might never know. Even if they do genuinely deteste each other doesn't mean they aren't working together. If they are not working together, then what is middlefingers end goal?

 

[Boaz]

dg, so you buy the Visaerys "Varys" Blackfyre idea? Good. Do you also believe in Tyraen "Tyrion" Targaryen/Hill/Fitzroy? That's even better!

I want to disagree, because I'm me, that Aegon was always Varys' main plan. I think Viserys and Arianne was the main plan. I think Aegon and Arianne was the backup plan and that Dany is a new plan of convenient expedience. I'm sure Varys and Illyrio had the plans for Aegon and Viserys developed concurrently, yet independently. As heartwarming of a story as Aegon may be, Viserys is still the last true born son of Aerys II... and that is hard to ignore. Aso, Viserys was betrothed to Dorne, Aegon was not. Yet, that may not be that big of a clue.... as we'll see Dorne quickly move from Viserys to Aegon in TWOW.

And yet I wonder if Varys does not have some secret marriage arranged for Aegon... But who could that be? The Targaryen loyalists are well known.... House Darry is extinguished, except for Gatehouse Ami... House Connington divided itself... House Martell has Arianne... House Tyrell has finally supported House Baratheon... House Tully turned on Aerys II... House Dayne has fallen upon hard times and it's heir is of the Brotherhood... House Baelish...

By the way, what did you do regarding the Genophage?

AW, "someone is always listening" is a decent explanation. Their meetings are staged.

I think that Baelish must understand that he can never be king... unless he has dragons.

Even if Varys is a Blackfyre, he must also know that he can never reign either... doubly so if he really is a eunuch as HBO has made clear.

But either of them could serve as Hand. Or return as Masters of Coin and Whispers while controlling both King and Hand.

Now if Varys is a Targaryen loyalist and since the dragons are returning and since Varys knows the secret history of the realm and since he has spies in Oldtown, then Varys knows that the Conclave of Maesters is against dragons... And he knows that the power of the Maesters must be curbed.

I also believe the Church Militant will be an obstacle to the return of the dragonkings and their dragons.

 

[grip junky]

Dany and her brother were never a part of his long term plans. He sent them out into the long grass to get them out of the way. How could he know the eggs would hatch.

 

[svalbard]

Dany and her brother were never a part of his long term plans. He sent them out into the long grass to get them out of the way. How could he know the eggs would hatch.

That has long being an opinion of mine. Viserys' s character would have been known to Illryio and Varys and with that knowledge they must have planned that he would come to sticky end with the Dothraki. Also with the way the Dothraki treated women they must also have held out little hope for Dany. Whereas Aegon was groomed by Connington in all the arts expected of a high born lord of Westeros.

Events have conspired against Varys to a certain extent, but does he realise this?

 

[Jonathan C]

I think he wants a king on the throne who will push forward what passes for a socialist agenda in this time and setting.

To that end he arranged for Aegon, whom he intends to use as a puppet king, and helped to engineer the civil war. The latter he did to break the power of the major houses, and to make things so bad for everybody that an egalitarian Targaryen king would be seen as a blessing.

Basically he's a commoner-turned-spymaster who has grown tired of all the abuses of power and arrogance and negligence that he sees in Kings Landing every day. He knows that nobody at the top is really looking out for the man at the bottom and is sick of it, so he has a mind to cripple the establishment and place his own man on the throne, who will push through his own policies. He helped Tyrion escape because he wished to frame him for Kevan's death and thus drive Cersei further to paranoia- he wants her in charge, for now, because he knows what a disaster she is, and it will make Aegon look better when he finally appears. Although he might have hoped that Tyrion and Aegon would team up, since Tyrion is one of the few who looks out for the little guy, even if nobody loves him for it.

He is basically Bayaz if he were a revolutionary, and like many revolutionaries he thinks he knows best. His plan probably won't work in the long run, whether it be because Aegon is too arrogant, Daenarys too powerful, Littlefinger too devious, or the Others too suddenly showing up and completely changing the game. Plus he himself is too cynical and corrupt and ruthless to really be a good puppet king. It will probably fall apart for him, but I imagine he'll at least get Aegon on the throne for a short while.

That's what I'm thinking.

 

[JoanDrake]

Only the Dragons can keep the seven kingdoms from incessant war.

I think that's the most important thing. I've read somewhere that Martin has said he views the Dragons as a metaphor for nuclear weapons. So he has Varys maneuver the eggs to the only one who can hatch them, the only true, fireproof Targaryen

 

[devilsgrin]

I think that's the most important thing. I've read somewhere that Martin has said he views the Dragons as a metaphor for nuclear weapons. So he has Varys maneuver the eggs to the only one who can hatch them, the only true, fireproof Targaryen

interestingly, i did actually mean Dragons in the Targaryen sense, not the scales kind.
I doubt she's the only one who's fireproof. I do truly believe that Aegon IS Aegon. And not a pretender. Perhaps Tyrion is the false dragon... perhaps even Dany is the false dragon (unless poor Quentyn was the false dragon).

I also do think Aegon/Connington was always Varys' best and primary play - especially after Viserys' nature became clear - another Aerys would have been even worse than doing nothing.
Aegon plus Arianne is a brilliant move. Frankly tho, Aegon with any Great Lady makes a brilliant tactical move, but really only Sansa and Arianne can be counted in anymore - poor "used" Margeary Tyrell - she's king's poison. Dany as the third head legitimises the three heads - Arianne keeps it fertile, but with a clear line of succession (with Dany's barren-ness).

 

[Brian G Turner]

Am I the only one who feels a bit cheated by the Aegon/Connington reveal? Here we are five long books into the series and, as it's readying to close, we're told that - oh btw, here's something huge that hasn't been mentioned at all even though it's central to the politics.

That's why I find it hard to imagine Connington as ever having been a serious player in this game. Arya overheard Illyrio and Varys talking in GoT and it was clear Varys was invested in the fate of Dany. We were given every suggestion the Targs were all dead but for Viserys and Dany, and yet, somehow, the heir survived and nobody except perhaps Varys knew about it? That stretches my credulity a bit too far. Connington feels like an author attempt to divert fans rather than a planned part of the story.

 

[grip junky]

I am not sure who Varys works for. If all he wanted was power or to be the power behind the king or what ever. At this point it would be best for him to keep Tommen as king and kill off Cersei and jAime.

If he does want a Targaryen as king, it seems he does but I am not sure, he will never have a better chance. He sends Visery (the false dragon) and Daenarys out into the long grass, to get ride of them. What he gets he could not have planned for, or hoped for better. He gets rid of the false dragon and gets a Targaryen WOMEN with real live dragons. This is what makes me question what he wants. Why is he waiting, Why has he not sent a ship for her and her dragons and married her to Aegon? Could be he does not have as much power as we give him credit for or he is not as smart.

For me Aegon came into the story at the perfect time.

 

[JoanDrake]

Having not read any books but the first and the last few chapters of DoD (I'll be damned if I get involved with a story that will possibly take another 5 years to complete, besides all but the politics bores me) I have to ask a spoiler: Highlight below if you've read all the books.

What happened to the Dragons anyway. Did they all get sick and die, and why?

Has it been revealed what happened to the Dragons? Apparently they all got sick and died, but why?

 

[Sander]

Having not read any books but the first and the last few chapters of DoD (I'll be damned if I get involved with a story that will possibly take another 5 years to complete, besides all but the politics bores me) I have to ask a spoiler: Highlight below if you've read all the books.

What happened to the Dragons anyway. Did they all get sick and die, and why?

Has it been revealed what happened to the Dragons? Apparently they all got sick and died, but why?

We only have some vague hints, but no concrete answers. We know that before they died out, newer generations tended to be smaller and smaller and live shorter and shorter lives. There was a hint that that may have happened because the later generations of Targaryens kept them chained up inside, limiting their growth and food intake (and limiting how much damage they could do to the countryside).

 

[JoanDrake]

Am I the only one who feels a bit cheated by the Aegon/Connington reveal? Here we are five long books into the series and, as it's readying to close, we're told that - oh btw, here's something huge that hasn't been mentioned at all even though it's central to the politics.

That's why I find it hard to imagine Connington as ever having been a serious player in this game. Arya overheard Illyrio and Varys talking in GoT and it was clear Varys was invested in the fate of Dany. We were given every suggestion the Targs were all dead but for Viserys and Dany, and yet, somehow, the heir survived and nobody except perhaps Varys knew about it? That stretches my credulity a bit too far. Connington feels like an author attempt to divert fans rather than a planned part of the story.

This is why I like author discussions, we get insights into how they work.

Martin has always struck me as a very structured writer, probably works from a detailed outline, knows just what is going to happen and precisely what he means to say. Now you're saying that he's sort of lost control of his own story? That's a rather interesting observation.

 

[Jonathan C]

Martin divides writers into Gardeners (seat-of-your-pants, make-it-up as you go along) and Architects (outliners, planning the story out in detail before actually writing it). He says that he, like the majority of writers, falls somewhere in the middle, but says that he leans more towards a Gardener. He knows how the story will start and end and a few details in-between, but a lot of the rest is him just writing as he goes along and seeing what works. One reason AFFC and ADWD took so long is that ADWD was going to be book number 4, but about halfway through it he decided that what he was writing just didn't work and ended up not only cutting it into two books, but basically rewriting them wholesale. Then ADWD took ages because he discovered that a lot of characters weren't going to end up where he wanted them to be.

So he's practically confessed that he lost control of his story, but he does seem to think that he has regained it. And he was never following a detailed structure; it just isn't his style.