sword and sorcery

[james lecky]

Are there any fans of sword and sorcery around here - the older stuff like Conan, Elric, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Elak and the like, or indeed the newer writers like James Enge, Scott Lynch and Joe Abercrombie (if you consider them to be s&s, that is)?

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Well, Joe Abercrombie is a member of the site here...

 

[j d worthington]

I don't know if I could still be considered a "fan" of S&S or not... though I suppose I could. I still read it now and again, and enjoy a fair amount of it when I do: I still have a strong fondness for REH, and think that (at his best) he is a marvelous writer with a strongly poetic view of the world and (as de Camp said) an understanding of "the underlying tragedy of life" which can make his work very powerful. Some of Poul Anderson's S&S, such as The Broken Sword, I still rank very highly, as I do several of Andre Norton's Witch World books... and, of course, I love Leiber's Fafhrd & Grey Mouser stories, both because of their range and because of the wordsmithing involved. I'm also quite fond of Karl Edward Wagner's Kane, and consider Moorcock one of my four favorite writers (though less, frankly, for his S&S than some of his other works... generally speaking; there are exceptions as some of his S&S is really very well written; even at that, I'll always have a strong attachment to his S&S for its magnificent tableaux, if nothing else).

Jack Vance and C. J. Cherryh also continue to have my respect admiration. And, if you extend S&S to include some of the older classic fantasies (such as The Worm Ouroboros or The Well of the Unicorn) as some do, then we can add a goodly number of other writers/books to the list, as well.....

 

[james lecky]

I am a huge fan of Kane, and I think Karl Edward Wagner captured something very special with that particular character.

Michael Moorcock, even at his most rushed and overtly commercial, managed to give s&s a literary feel that took it away from the pulp sensibility that dominated (and to a large extent still eliminates) the majority of the (sub)genre.

I think writers like ER Eddision and Fletcher Pratt can be, broadly speaking, brought into the s&s fold, along with William Morris, Clark Ashton Smith (an all time favourite of mine) and Lord Dunsany at least as examples of proto sword and sorcery.

Robert E Howard remains the wellspring of the genre, of course, even if Conan was diluted by other hands as the stories were added to by other hands.

 

[Vince W]

I've been a fan of S&S for a long time (Howard, Moorcock, et. al.), but I must admit I've been somewhat disappointed in many of the more recent offerings. They're okay, but they really haven't hit that S&S itch for me. The closest I've come to are some of the Warhammer novels.

 

[james lecky]

It's a thorny issue in some respects, fans of the genre tend to cling to the 'classics' - for instance Piazo republished Henry Kuttner's Elak of Atlantis and Manly Wade Wellman's Hok the Mighty stories a while back and the original Howard Conan tales are often repackaged - and new sword and sorcery (at least as a publishing term) is somewhat out of favour with publishers, but there are a few outlets for s&s still out there (Black Gate, Beneath Ceaseless Skies, Heroic Fantasy Quarterly and Swords and Sorcery Magazine).

Much as I love the genre, I think that the main problem is that it has failed to move on in the same way that, say, Space Opera has done (both forms emerged at more or less the same time) and the (self imposed) narrowness of the form tends hold it back. Of course elements of sword and sorcery can be found in a lot of epic fantasy, so perhaps it is gradually changing or, indeed, evolving.

 

[Connavar]

Sword and sorcery have always been my fav type of fantasy. Solomon Kane, Conan by Howard is alltime favs, Leiber books are awesome, Charles R.Saunders Imaro series is modern seminal series. Tanith Lee is another fav. Jack Vance DE stories have some S&S like stories. Moorock is an original even if not a fav of mine.

Modern versions i like Paul Kearney, David Gemmell, Abercrombie but i still prefer the classic early,middle period ones.

 

[james lecky]

The Imaro books are wonderful, a real original. I love Jack Vance, too, just finished reading The Dragon Masters for the umpteenth time - that and The Last Castle have a real s&s feel to them (although are rightly seen as sf - science fantasy, maybe). The Dying Earth is, I think, a masterpiece.

Moorcock was my introduction to sword and sorcery before I even knew that was the term (Sailor on the Seas of Fate, if memory serves). I've always loved the Prince Forum novels, too.

David Gemmell.... oh yes, pity he was taken from us so soon.

 

[j d worthington]

Michael Moorcock, even at his most rushed and overtly commercial, managed to give s&s a literary feel that took it away from the pulp sensibility that dominated (and to a large extent still eliminates) the majority of the (sub)genre.

Don't misunderstand me -- I am very fond of Moorcock's S&S; I just think that, overall, it is not quite as impressive as some of his other work (e.g., Mother London, Blood); but there are exceptions, such as The Revenge of the Rose, which remains a strong favorite of mine. And yes, The Sailor on the Seas of Fate (despite the changes in "The Jade Man's Eyes" -- I prefer the original) also remains one of my favorites. I'm also quite fond of The War Hound and the World's Pain, though less so of The City in the Autumn Stars, which I found somewhat problematic....

I think writers like ER Eddision and Fletcher Pratt can be, broadly speaking, brought into the s&s fold, along with William Morris, Clark Ashton Smith (an all time favourite of mine) and Lord Dunsany at least as examples of proto sword and sorcery.

I feel very ambivalent about classifying CAS as a S&S writer; his work in the "straight" fantasy field is so often either horrific or satiric in intent that I'm not entirely sure he belongs in this field in particular... yet he certainly has influenced it, at the very least. (And yes, he's a favorite of mine as well -- in many ways even more so for his poetry than his fiction, though I am immensely fond of the latter. I don't know how much of his verse you've read, but a large amount of it is simply exquisite; quite breathtaking.)

Robert E Howard remains the wellspring of the genre, of course, even if Conan was diluted by other hands as the stories were added to by other hands.

In the main, this is true, though some -- notably Wagner's The Road of Kings -- certainly have much to recommend them.

As for such things as Kuttner's Elak stories, or Clifford Ball's brief run of S&S... these are sheer pulp, and often not particularly good pulp, at that... yet I will confess to a certain fondness for them. And, of course, Moore, with her Jirel stories, often hit a high-water mark in my view....

 

[james lecky]

It's a bone of contention with s&s scholars, did Clark Ashton Smith write sword and sorcery. Taken as body of work one might automatically say no. But at the same time, if one looks at Howard's entire output, S&S forms only a part, similarly Fritz Leiber, yet no one doubts it.

The Hyberborea and Zothique stories certainly in my opinion are sword and sorcery (a little less of the sword, perhaps) and his influence on the genre cannot be discounted.

 

[j d worthington]

As I say, I feel ambivalent about that classification, but not entirely against it. I suppose, in part, it depends on how narrow one defines sword-and-sorcery fiction. Certainly, if Dunsany -- even with such a tale as "The Fortress Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth" or "The Sword of Welleran" -- can qualify, then certainly several of Smith's stories would. And, in a very real way, a broader definition of the genre is much to be desired. As I've said many times before, the problem with the Gothic romances of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries wasn't so much some of the improbable (or even silly) aspects of these tales themselves; it was the fact that the entire genre became so incestuous that it all but bred itself out of existence, at least until revivified by writers such as Poe or Mary Shelley, who injected entirely new perspectives, motifs, and themes into it, thus allowing it to in turn produce writers such as Le Fanu, or even Stephen Crane, Angela Carter, or Flannery O'Connor....

 

[Randy M.]

J.D., I can understand your reluctance to call the Zothique stories S&S. I keep trying to remember a citation: Was it Leiber who called S&S a melding of epic fantasy and horror? Even before coming across that, I'd had a similar feeling, which leads me to at least concede that Smith's work was influential on the form.

I'd suggest looking into the collection, The Throne of Bones by Brian MacNaughton. MacNaughton wasn't the writer Smith was line by line, but had a good handle on how to tell a story that evokes some of the same feelings as Smith's work. The first story in the collection seemed to me very much sword & sorcery, and the atmosphere and mood of that story is maintained throughout.

Randy M.

 

[Rafellin]

I came to S&S via Elric, then discovered Conan, Kane and Lankhmar. Over the years, I have got fussier over it (a fact of life with so many things). Katherine Kerr's first quad is still on my shelves, along with all of CJ Cherryh's Morgaine. Gemmels' early Dorsai works and Lynn Abbey's Black Flame stand beside them. Andre Norton's Witch World occupies a significant chunk of my book cupboard as well.

But for classic S&S, I rank Gardner F. Fox's Kothar at the top, plus his Kyric and Llarn books as well.

Gemmell's Echoes of the Great Song is without compare.

Of the recent writers, I love Holly Lisle's Talyn and both of Gaie Seibold's Babylon Steel books.

Kristen Britains Green Rider is a classic but I found the subsequent pair average at best.

 

[james lecky]

The Throne of Bones is a magnificent collection, very Clark Ashton Smith but with an identity all of its own. Also worth checking out is The House of the Worm by Gary Myers, which, again, has a very CAS feel to it.

 

[j d worthington]

Yes, that's an odd blending, The House of the Worm. It has much of Lovecraft, a good deal of Dunsany, more than a little Smith, and even a touch of Jack Vance and Cabell to it; at least so it seems to me.

I've not yet had the opportunity of reading these, but I would imagine, from the descriptions, that they offer even more along these lines:

The Country of the Worm: Excursions Beyond the Wall of Sleep: Gary Myers: 9781484801970: Amazon.com: Books

Gray Magic: An Episode of Eibon: Gary Myers: 9781484801949: Amazon.com: Books

Dark Wisdom: Tales of the Old Ones: Gary Myers: 9781484801963: Amazon.com: Books

 

[RiderEngland]

Sword and Sorcery fan here. I read Moorcock's Elric series when I was thirteen or fourteen. I've still got the books somewhere, slim volumes with silver covers. That led me to more Moorcock such as the Runestaff and Corum books.

I found Robert E Howard along the way although I think I may have enjoyed Solomon Kane more than Conan.

I was hooked on Piers Anthony's Battle Circle trilogy(?) as well.

I also love Sword & Planet stories but that's a different genre from S&S, I suppose.

 

[nomadman]

I also love Sword & Planet stories but that's a different genre from S&S, I suppose.

Technically, perhaps, though the two genres are so niche and have so many parallels that I wonder if there's really any point in differentiating them. Brackett's Stark tales, for example, share much more in common with Howard, Moore et al than they do to even early science fiction, and I'm not sure if their loose SF trappings are strong enough to justify them being placed in a whole other genre. After all, the Lankhmar stories were set in a giant inverted bubble floating through the Waters of Eternity, the Elric stories were set in multiple dimensions, etc. Compared to that, merely being set on another planet isn't exactly the hugest imaginative leap.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Eleven of Howard's stories are in Project Gutenberg now.

Queen of the Black Coast
by Robert E. Howard

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/42183/42183-h/42183-h.htm

One of the best I think.

psik

 

[JoanDrake]

Conan is, and always will be, the only real Sword and Sorcery character. The others mentioned are good, particularly Elric and Fahfrd/Grey Mouser, but I see them as other types of Fantasy with strong S&S elements.


Even Conan himself, in the almost last one Howard wrote, the novel Hour of the Dragon, actually sort of jumped the shark and became an epic fantasy figure rather than a roving freebooter. I've always wondered if that didn't contribute to Howard's suicide just a little. Could he have realized he'd sort of spoiled the only character he'd ever made that had enough appeal to create a whole genre?

 

[nomadman]

Conan is, and always will be, the only real Sword and Sorcery character. The others mentioned are good, particularly Elric and Fahfrd/Grey Mouser, but I see them as other types of Fantasy with strong S&S elements.


Even Conan himself, in the almost last one Howard wrote, the novel Hour of the Dragon, actually sort of jumped the shark and became an epic fantasy figure rather than a roving freebooter. I've always wondered if that didn't contribute to Howard's suicide just a little. Could he have realized he'd sort of spoiled the only character he'd ever made that had enough appeal to create a whole genre?

I don't see how an entire genre can consist of only one real character, and remain meaningful.