Run ons

Mouse

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That's run-on sentences. I've been told twice now that I do these a lot and I haven't really got a clue what they are and why they're bad.

I've Googled it and still don't get it. I don't learn by being told or by reading terms I don't understand. I need to be shown and I need to do.

Glisterspeck has been trying to help me:

With the kind of run-ons you're using, just do a search for "and" and look on either side of the word "and." If there is a subject and a verb on both sides, add a comma before the "and." That will do you in 100% of the cases here!

I vaguely know what a verb is (although I've just looked it up and it turns out, nope, I haven't a clue) and I have no idea at all what a 'subject' is.

I can go through and look at my 'ands' easy enough, but when I can't recognise a verb and a subject, I have a problem.

So, if someone could explain to me, preferably without using terms I don't know, what a run on is and how to find and fix them, that'd be awesome.

Basically, I know what an adverb is. And a pronoun. I don't think that helps me here. :(
 
I suspect it means this (though I stand to be corrected!):

Mouse posted on chronicles and drank her vodka.

Is about two different actions - posting and drinking. Therefore a comma between them separates them into separate clauses, rather than single all encompassing one where everything is happening and potentially becomes confused:

Mouse posted on chronicles, and drank her vodka.

Cheers for the post, too - I've been confused as to what rule determines when to add comma before and. Glitterspeck's explanation is handy.
 
Ah... That would probably explain why alchemist keeps shoving commas into my work whenever he betas for me! :D

I just thought that was an Oxford comma.
 
The 'subject' is the doer of a verb. "I kissed Mouse. She slapped me." has 'I' and 'She' as subjects.

A verb is something that is done, usually directly to another (kicked, slapped etc). Other verbs can be less direct (saying, showing).
 
Basically, a run on sentence is where what looks like two sentences are stuck together without anything separating them:
The dog bit Bill the cat scratched Jim.
You can (if you're evil ;)) turn this into a comma splice by adding a comma:
The dog bit Bill, the cat scratched Jim.
As we should all know by now, you can turn the comma splice into proper English (;):)) by replacing the comma with a semicolon -
The dog bit Bill; the cat scratched Jim.
- or a full stop -
The dog bit Bill. The cat scratched Jim.
- or one of the list of conjunctions (and, but, or, nor, yet, as, because, for, so) that makes sense -
The dog bit Bill and the cat scratched Jim.
The dog bit Bill but the cat scratched Jim.
The dog bit Bill as the cat scratched Jim.
The dog bit Bill because the cat scratched Jim.
The dog bit Bill so the cat scratched Jim.

 
The dog bit Bill and the cat scratched Jim.

Whoa, hang on. So why's that not a run on? I did get into a habit of comma splicing (I mean more so than I do now) and I think I tried to fix them all by adding the 'and'. So now I've ended up with run ons instead.

:confused:
 
It isn't a run-on sentence as it's a perfectly normal and grammatical English sentence.

The Wiktionary definition of a run-on sentence is:
(grammar) an ungrammatical sentence in which two independent clauses that should be joined by either a semicolon or a conjunction or should be separate sentences are written as a single sentence, the clauses often being separated by a comma.
Note that this definition (the bit I've underlined) treats a comma splice as a type of run-on sentence.

(What they mean by an "independent clause" is a bit of text that could be a grammatical sentence on its own, such as "the dog bit Bill" or "the cat scratched Jim".)
 
The whole point of using the conjuction 'and ' here is to allow you to join two sentences together into a single grammatical sentence. I can't see why anyone would believe using 'and' in this way is wrong. It isn't wrong; whereas run-on sentences are wrong (or, to be more accurate, ungrammatical).

<Sentence>. <Sentence> . . . . . Grammatically correct
<Sentence>; <Sentence> . . . . . Grammatically correct
<Sentence>, <Sentence> . . . . . Grammatically incorrect (comma splice)
<Sentence><Sentence> . . . . . . Grammatically incorrect (run-on sentence)
<Sentence> and <Sentence> . . Grammatically correct
<Sentence> but <Sentence> .. . Grammatically correct
etc.
 
once my teacher scratched out every one of my conjunctions with a big red pen. the paper looked like it was bleeding. i had accidentally made the whole page one sentence. :D
anyways... if you choose to break up the run on sentence into smaller sentences, remember to add the identifying words that complete the sentence.. or you will have a page of fragmented sentences.. very hemmingway-ish to have fragmented sentences but your grammar check will have catfits.

i was always told that run-on sentences are two sentences jammed together, by whatever means. We were encouraged to separate these into two distinct sentences for the sake of clarity.
 
Ursa, everything you're saying is going way over my head and is just making me understand it less.

There's no point telling me stuff, I need examples without all the terminology.
 
The problem with 'and' - what the teacher was pointing out, as you've noted - is that you could join every sentence in a paragraph together:
The dog bit Bill and the cat scratched Jim and the bull threw Tom and the bird pecked Alice and the fox nipped Sandra and the goat butted Sue and the snake hissed at David and the reader stopped reading.
The sentence above is grammatically correct, but you would hope an adult would never construct such a sentence except to show how awful it looks or as part of something for children to talk along to (like a talking game).


EDIT: But Mouse, I've given lots of examples. Look only at those examples, if you want. If you want to think some of them are wrong, that's up to you, but they aren't.
 
Yes, but I don't do that. I don't have loads of ands connecting loads of things. I usually only have one and. I've been told this is a run on and it sounds like that's what thad and Brian are saying too, but you're saying something different? (I am trying to understand this!)

So I've got this:

He crouched down and as she returned to her task, he snapped a few shots. Satisfied, he stowed the camera away again and moved off through the trees, whistling for the dog to follow.

And Glisterspeck's said it's a run on. I don't understand how I can tell it is.

What I've done for the mo is:

He crouched down and, as she returned to her task, he snapped a few shots. Satisfied, he stowed the camera away again and moved off through the trees, whistling for the dog to follow.

Which goes against the 'put a comma before and' rule, but it's where I'd pause when reading.
 
Ah... That would probably explain why alchemist keeps shoving commas into my work whenever he betas for me! :D

I just thought that was an Oxford comma.

I'd love to claim I knew exactly what I was doing and my comma had a name (the Donegal comma?) but I can't remember why I wanted them in. It was more gut instinct than higher grammar.
 
A 'subject' (he starts, feeling the mischievous impulse to confuse matters encroach) is the thing that does the doing. Almost certainly a noun (see, we have already eliminated your 'pronoun, adjective, preposition classification of words in my first sentence. When you are classifying words you… look, if you saw a playground full of children you could split them into groups by age, sex {knowing you}, house colours, height – a thousand ways to separate them {including the long-advised crowbar}. We do the same for words, which are generally more disciplined), it is the reference point of the sentence. In the simplified sentence "Spot ran", Spot is the subject, running is the verb, the action. One level of complexity, "Joe chased Spot". Now, Joe has replaced Spot as the subject while Spot himself, while as far as we know in no way objectionable, has become the object of the sentence, the thing acted upon by the subject, and the verb, the action has become 'to chase' (the 'action upon' would have been more evident if the sentence had been "Joe strangled Spot", but that wouldn't have been nice).

"Joe chased Spot down the garden." has changed nothing. The garden, while a noun, hasn't entered the structure, it's just sitting there, probably waiting for fairies to colonise its bottom. But (starting a sentence with a conjunction, which is frowned upon) if "Joe chased Spot down the garden, and they both fell into the duck pond.", we suddenly have a second verb ('fell', from 'to fall' which could have been a noun or an adjective with the same spelling, but is definitely an action in this case and thus verbal, while the 'duck', which had the same three options is preening itself adjectivally and… I'm making this too complicated, aren't I?), another subject (both) and nearly an object. We have run on, and got wet and muddy, and still the sentence shows nowhere near the level of complexity of most of mine (ignoring parenthetical interventions, which is probably the best way to treat them).

But that sentence contains the elements of two complete sentences, and could so be expressed "Joe chased Spot down the garden. They both fell into the duck pond. The ducks disapproved loudly at this invasion of their tranquillity." Oops. Or welded together with the addition of a conjunction (in this case 'and', but could have been 'but' for a contrast, or 'or', or a word like 'while' – Glisterspeck was somewhat simplifying the task) to make a single, larger concept. Which can have a comma in it "Joe chased Spot down the garden, and they both fell into the duck pond.", or it can be left out "Joe chased Spot down the garden and they both fell into the duck pond.", depending on whether you would take a breath at the junction, and thus subtly chances the emphasis in the sentence.

;)Now, for "See Spot run." the true subject is the unstated second person to whom the command is being given, the 'you' that should 'see', while 'Spot' is responsible for a second verb (to run) which makes that structure remarkably complicated for so few words. See?

He crouched down and as she returned to her task, he snapped a few shots. Satisfied, he stowed the camera away again and moved off through the trees, whistling for the dog to follow.
Your movement of the comma was correct, and suggests you should be listening to your instincts rather than analytic considerations ('specially mine). You put in the double commas, like a set of brackets (parentheses) but less so, round the subordinate clause "as she returned to her task", which could well have been taken out in its entirety leaving a grammatically complete (albeit less effective) sentence.
 
Yes, but I don't do that. I don't have loads of ands connecting loads of things. I usually only have one and. I've been told this is a run on and it sounds like that's what thad and Brian are saying too, but you're saying something different? (I am trying to understand this!)
If they've said that, they're wrong.

So I've got this:

He crouched down and as she returned to her task, he snapped a few shots. Satisfied, he stowed the camera away again and moved off through the trees, whistling for the dog to follow.

And Glisterspeck's said it's a run on. I don't understand how I can tell it is.
I don't think either sentence in that text is a run-on. You could rewrite the first, removing the second "he" to give:
He crouched down and as she returned to her task, snapped a few shots.
but that's just a matter of writing style, not grammar.

What I've done for the mo is:

He crouched down and, as she returned to her task, he snapped a few shots. Satisfied, he stowed the camera away again and moved off through the trees, whistling for the dog to follow.

Which goes against the 'put a comma before and' rule, but it's where I'd pause when reading.
That's okay, but the change has nothing to do with run-on sentences. All that you've done is put commas around a bit of text that could be removed without changing the basic sentence:
He crouched down and he snapped a few shots.
The bit
as she returned to her task
is added information, explaining the context. Note that the second "he" looks even more superfluous here; you'd normally write:
He crouched down and snapped a few shots.
I think it's best not to go into this use of commas here, because it isn't set in stone, but depends on the rest of the sentence (otherwise, you get a storm of commas).
 
Here's my understanding of it, which might be wrong, so, er, caveat lector or whatever the real Latin is.

A clause is a phrase expressing a finite idea. "I shot Bill." Here is another idea: "I did not shoot Ben". Each of these exists on its own. They can be written as two distinct sentences, each with its own idea: "I shot Bill. I did not shoot Ben." But they cannot be put together (in good written English) like this: "I shot Bill I did not shoot Ben". Quite why I'm not sure, but basically you can't run one idea into another like this. One way or another, the two ideas have to be presented separately, so if you want to bring them into the same sentence, you have to have something else that links them together.

The linking thing could bring them together for the purpose of comparing and contrasting them. You could do this with words that link them (prepositions, maybe? I'm unsure). So you could write "Although I shot Bill, I did not shoot Ben" or "I shot Bill, yet I did not shoot Ben". Here, "Although" and "Yet" are linking the clauses so they can be contrasted (on one hand... on the other hand). You could also do this with punctuation: "I shot Bill - I did not shoot Ben". There, the hyphen is effectively doing the work of "but".

You can't do this with a comma. Again, I'm not sure exactly why not, but I think the comma is too weak to make the separation work, where a colon or a hyphen is more drastic and makes the separation of the two ideas clearer. Basically, each phrase conveys an idea. Phrases are distinct from one another, but they can be linked with other words or punctuation.

Note that this is not the same thing: "The sword was heavy, long and rusted around the handle". These words are conveying effectively one idea - what the sword was like. However, this would be wrong: "The sword was heavy, long and rusted around the handle, the shield was brand new" because it's running together two ideas (describing the sword and describing the shield) without properly separating them. This too is wrong: "The sword was heavy and long, it was rusted around the handle". Why? Because, I think, two clauses are involved that could stand on their own: "The sword was heavy and long" and "It was rusted around the handle". Each could be a sentence in its own right, so it needs to be separated from the surrounding text by something stronger than a comma.

Does that help at all, or is that just even more confusing?
 
So again, I've still no idea whether I am actually doing run ons or not. I hate it when one person says one thing and someone else says something else! Gets me so confused.

Most of the time (not all, sometimes I'm just doing it wrong), I write a sentence for the way it flows. So all these little snappy sentences with the fullstops to get rid of supposed run ons, would kill the rhythm for me.

edit: hang on, will read what Toby's said...
 
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