Jamie Lannister, the....

[Dunneroo]

Rightful King of Westeros, Valonqar, Kingslayer and Kinslayer!

I have been doing a re-read of the books and just finished AFFC. Jamie has become the most interesting POV for me this time around compared to being one of the least enjoyed and hated characters the first time through. I love the bath scene with him and Brienne where he explains himself killing the Mad King. To me, he felt he was keeping his oath of protecting the weak and helpless by slaying Aerys, who wanted them all to burn. He also makes a good point regarding oathbreaking that it depends on the POV. Tywin mentions he needs him to become the man he was meant to be. In truth, Jamie is the only one doing justice and being the true leader that Westeros needs. He treats with Edmure to yield riverun without bloodshed and is honoring his oath to Catelyn Stark. He is also aiding Brienne and disregarding Cersei.

First, the Valonqar. It is stated that Cersei came into the world before Jamie, making him the "little brother." It only makes sense to me that Jamie would kill Cersei, because GRRM throws the deception in Cersei's POV how she keeps thinking of Tyrion as the Valonqar, thus leading readers to believe he is to eventually be the Valonqar. A GRRM curveball if you ask me. Further evidence would suggest Jamie/Cersei are only half siblings of Tyrion....

In AFFC, Jamie is having a conversation with Lady Genna, Tywin's sister married to a Frey. Here's some quotes to contemplate:

"every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little. Who will protect us now?" - Genna

"He left a son." - Jamie

"Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth." - Genna

"I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your fathers face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years." -Genna

If that is evidence enough that Tywin did NOT sire Jamie/Cersei, I don't know what is. I know there is also some heresay that Mad King Aerys may have raped Lady Joanna, hence giving us a dice roll of Targs, Jamie being the normal one and Cersei being Mad. After re-reading Cersei's chapters, I can't help but think she is exactly like the Mad King and her cruel thoughts and actions give us that insight. I know there is also a riff between Tywin and King Aerys, I can't remember the reasons, but I'm sure if Aerys forced himself on Joanna that there would be some contempt. This would also explain why Tywin backstabbed Aerys and opened the gates of Kings' Landing for Robert and Ned to sack the city.

Furthermore, If King Aerys knew that Jamie was his, wouldn't he want his son close to him and it would make sense to tap him for the Kingsgaurd. Oh ****, your thinking, Jamie killed his DAD? Looks that way to me, making him the Kinslayer as well as the Kingslayer. This would also make him the rightful king of Westeros, correct me if I'm wrong.

I would not be surprised to see Jamie sitting the Iron Throne when all is said and done. Hes the underdog playing the Game, and I like his odds.

 

[Boaz]

Dun, I'm overjoyed to see you embrace the Jaeme Targaryen theory. I've bought into the Tyraen Targaryen theory for so long that it is hard for me to dismiss it though.

I have pages of notes on my Unified Theory of Everything, but I could never make it come out right. The idea is that the entire story stems from the Targaryens. Aerys has seven children for the seven faces of the Faith... Rhaegar, Caersei, Jaeme, Tyraen, Viserys, Jon, and Danaerys. The prophecies of the three-headed dragon, the Prince that was promised, the Stallion who mounts the world, and Azor Ahai reborn should all dove-tail nicely. I just could not make it work...

Being a kingslayer has never bothered Jaime in the slightest. In fact, he'd have killed Robert if he needed. But by dropping the g from kingslayer, we are left with kinslayer. Even Jaime does not want to labeled as that.

It's interesting that Tyrion is labeled as both a kingslayer and a kinslayer, and yet may not be either.

In ACOK when Catelyn visited Renly, the following occurred during the banquet...

The height of folly was reached when a plump fool came capering out in gold-painted tin with a cloth lion's head, and chased a dwarf around the tables, whacking him over the head with a bladder. Finally King Renly demanded to know why he was beating his brother.

"Why, Your Grace, I'm the Kinslayer," the fool said.

"It's Kingslayer, fool of a fool," Renly said, and the hall rang with laughter.

Renly and his guests took it as a joke. But does GRRM really mean that Jaime is a kinslayer? Will he kill more of his family? Will he be the valonqar?

The downside of all this is that I've been scouring the text for conspiracy theories and scanning chapters for red herrings for ten years now.... and I don't know one from the other anymore. And even worse, I've read both sides of all arguments so many times that I've posted on both sides of the argument in the same thread... albeit not in the same calendar year. [Knocks on wood.]

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I have pages of notes on my Unified Theory of Everything, but I could never make it come out right. The idea is that the entire story stems from the Targaryens. Aerys has seven children for the seven faces of the Faith... Rhaegar, Caersei, Jaeme, Tyraen, Viserys, Jon, and Danaerys. The prophecies of the three-headed dragon, the Prince that was promised, the Stallion who mounts the world, and Azor Ahai reborn should all dove-tail nicely. I just could not make it work...

Rhaegar=the Smith
Cersei=The mother(?)
Jaime=the Father(?) of Joff, Marcella and Tommen anyway
Tyrion=The Stranger
Jon=The Warrior
Danarys=The Maiden (?)
Which means...
Viserys=the Crone(?)

Of course, Danerys could be the mother and Cersei the Crone but who is the Maiden? Who can we take out and who can be the female to be inserted in? I would say perhaps take Tyrion out, Viserys is the Stanger and (__) is the maiden? I like the idea that Tyrion is Tywin's only legitimate offspring and that Jaime is a Kinslayer as well as a kingslayer.

 

[Ursa major]

Isn't unCat the Crone?



(Or Theon?)

 

[Boaz]

AW, I was thinking more along the lines of:

Rhaegar: Father, the prime mover of fulfilling the prophecy
Cersei: Crone, seen it all, bitter about life
Jaime: Warrior, revels in the struggle
Tyrion: Stranger, 'nuff said
Viserys: Maiden, unprotected victim, desired by many
Jon: Smith, the builder of the defenses
Daenerys: Mother, dragons, freedmen, will re-establish Targ rule

But I've not come up with perfect comparisons... I'm just not enough of a chess player to see all the possibilities nor enough of a lateral thinker to make the disparate connections to make my unified theory work.

 

[Keldaris]

Rhaegar: Father, the prime mover of fulfilling the prophecy
Cersei: Crone, seen it all, bitter about life
Jaime: Warrior, revels in the struggle
Tyrion: Stranger, 'nuff said
Viserys: Maiden, unprotected victim, desired by many
Jon: Smith, the builder of the defenses
Daenerys: Mother, dragons, freedmen, will re-establish Targ rule

But I've not come up with perfect comparisons... I'm just not enough of a chess player to see all the possibilities nor enough of a lateral thinker to make the disparate connections to make my unified theory work.

Well, as a firm believer of R+L=J, Jon wouldn't make that list as he isn't Aerys' son. I'm also a firm believer that Tyrion is Tywin's true son. That leaves a second opening.

But what if it wasn't that Aerys had seven sons. There are seven living Targs,depending on which theories you believe. If we accept that Jaime and Cersei were born of Targ rape,then their children would also be Targaryen!

So we have Danaerys, Jaime, Cersei, Jon, Tommen, Myrcella which is six.
These six I see as undisputable targs. The seventh spot could be filled by one of several people: Aegon, Tyrion, Varys. I'm of the opinion that it is Aegon.

Which gives us
Jaime: Father-of the newest generation of Targs
Cersei: Crone-Bitter,Cynical,mourns the fading of her beauty with age
Jon: Warrior-Will Lay down his life to protect the realm
Aegon: Stranger-He is a stanger to his people, they are strangers to him
Tommen: Smith-
Myrcella: Maiden-Self explanatory
Danaerys: Mother-of dragons and slaves


As you can see, Tommen is the only one that I had some difficulty fitting into this theory...

 

[Boaz]

Going along... if Jaime is the Father, then Cersei must be the Mother. Dany becomes the Crone... widowed and barren.

So what if R+L=J and Tyrion is Tywin's son and Viserys is dead, then Jaime's words "There are no men like me. There's only me." could be taken in a new light as prophetic words that he is the son of Aerys. And in depriving Tywin of his heir, Aerys was actually depriving himself of a potential heir when Jaime donned the White. And this makes Cersei's paranoia regarding Maggy's prophecy darker... not only will she be replaced as Queen of Westeros, of Queen of the people's affections, but as Queen of Jaime's heart if Jaime were to wed Dany.

Yes, I'm stretching ordinary dialogue, prophecies, and our own theories to their limits, but what the heck... if all this were easily believable, then we'd already believe it.

 

[joshrackley]

Oooh oooh ooh, if Rhaegar is the Smith in this theory then that fits with my theory in the Azor Ahai/Lightbringer Crackpot Theory thread!!

 

[Dunneroo]

Which gives us
Jaime: Father-of the newest generation of Targs
Cersei: Crone-Bitter,Cynical,mourns the fading of her beauty with age
Jon: Warrior-Will Lay down his life to protect the realm
Aegon: Stranger-He is a stanger to his people, they are strangers to him
Tommen: Smith-
Myrcella: Maiden-Self explanatory
Danaerys: Mother-of dragons and slaves

Doesn't the Stranger represent the god of death? If anyone would fit this role, I think Joffrey would fit better than most? If we are also all in agreeance that Cersei will die before the end, then we can use dead Targs to fill this theory?

Jaime - Father
Cersei - Crone
Jon - Warrior
Joffrey - Stranger
Rhaegar - Smith
Myrcella - Maiden
Danaerys - Mother

 

[Tywin]

I like that we are looking at different characters that represent the Seven, but I'm not sure why we are focusing so much on these being offspring of Aerys, or Targaryens for that matter.

For instance we could have 7 Starks:
Father - Ned
Crone - Catelyn
Warrior - Robb
Stranger - Rickon
Smith - Bran
Maiden - Arya (forever a maiden perhaps)
Mother - Sansa (Mother of future Starks?)

Or if we really want to have this match, we can just pick the 7 most representative characters. All of these examples are POVs except for Gendry:
Father - Davos (the most fatherly guy you find alive in these books)
Crone - Asha (We could throw Olenna Tyrell in here, but I'm trying to stick to POVs)
Warrior - Jaime (for some fun research, go check out the Norse 'warrior' god. Then read any of the places where GRRM talks about how much he was affected by taking Norse mythology classes at Northwestern)
Stranger - Arya (Is this one not obvious?)
Smith - Gendry (literally a smith)
Maiden - Brienne (the maiden of Tarth, no?)
Mother - Daenerys (Mother of something, isn't she?)

 

[Koopa]

i don't get it. I mean this isn't Malazan. I don't think well find representatives like that (-->
Anomander Rake : Son of Darkness, Knight of High House of Darkness) in westeros. Priests and what not, but not in the vein that above posts make it out.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I really like how well the Starks line up with the 7.

I think Martin wanted certain characters to fit in with the religion, not that it means anything prophetic, just so that the story feels connected in a deeper level. Certainly it is no mistake that one of the 7 is the Mother and that Dany embodies many of her traits and is even called the mother (of dragons and freed-men). Sansa seems very much like the maiden for now, but might become the mother. Brienne also represents the Maiden and is obvious about it, though she could represent the warrior as well. Jaime, Robb, Jon, Robert and so many others could also represent the Warrior. Ned and Ser Barristan (ser Grandfather) could represent the Father, but I think the most compelling of the 7 is the stranger. I always thought this was the most interesting aspect of the seven-who-are-one and there are quite a few Candidates.

Arya - Obvious
Tyrion - Also obvious (i think)
Sandor - has a distinctively disfigured face and Even rides a horse called Stranger
Littlefinger - nobody really knows him or what his motives are. Has certainly helped quite a few people to the grave.
Varys - The spider. same ass Littlefinger.
Uncat - again, Obvious
Roose and Ramsey Bolton (?)
Qyburn -
Euron Crowseye -
Vargo Hoat -
Rorge and Biter -
The Kindly Man (and pretty much any other faceless man)

 

[Tywin]

When you click through the religions of Westeros and The Seven of the Andals religion on the wiki of ice and fire, interestingly enough, they list characters in the books that "favor" one of the Seven. I noticed this on the wiki for the Warrior and the Smith.

 

[Leo de Hauteville]

I really enjoyed Jaime's arc. My feelings towards him changed a lot throughout. First he was a horrible child-murderer, sister-banging, arrogant guy. Then we got his POV and slowly he became a sympathetic character, from Cersei's manipulation of him, to his forbidden love, to his inner conflict over his knightly vows and perhaps being one of the most "knightly" knights in the tale, making the sacrifice of his reputation in order to save lives.

It certainly seems fitting for him to be the Valonqar, Cersei has said constantly the Lannister twins will leave the world together, just as they entered it. Not to mention she fully expects Tyrion to be the brother that kills her.

As for the Lannister or Targ children I wouldn't mind if we never get the answer, it's fun to speculate and it would feel unnatural if George answered every subtle question present throughout the series.

A thing to ponder; if Jaime had not had his hand cut off would he have stood for little brother Tyrion in the trial?

 

[Judderman]

You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your fathers face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years." -Genna

If that is evidence enough that Tywin did NOT sire Jamie/Cersei, I don't know what is. I know there is also some heresay that Mad King Aerys may have raped Lady Joanna, hence giving us a dice roll of Targs, Jamie being the normal one and Cersei being Mad.

It is a good and interesting theory but I don't think the conversation you highlight is any evidence of Jaime having another father. Clearly she is just saying Tyrion has more of the character of Tywin, not that he is the only son. Jaime being the Valonqar makes sense for a little twist.

Jamie has been showing his good side in later books but I don't see the character who pushed Bran out of a window being the one to sit the Iron Throne in the conclusion. If it is a bad character it will be one who doublecrosses one of the "good" characters right in the final moments, but not him. Too weak now.

By the way where does the reference of Aerys having 7 children come from? Some prophecy quote? He isn't a god.

 

[Boaz]

GRRM does not tell us that Aerys has any bastards. We only know of his three legitimate children... Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys.

I'm the one who proposed seven children for Aerys II. It was eight or nine years ago that I first thought that Tyrion might be Aerys' *******. Maybe someone else came up with it first, but his fascination with fire, dragons, Targaryen history, his almost white hair, his one black eye, and desire to not be looked down upon make him an ideal candidate for one of the three heads of the Dragon. But his name and his physical shortcomings make him a very poor candidate.

So if Aerys took Joanna Lannister behind Tywin's back, why didn't he have other affairs of state? As William J. Le Petomane once said, " Gentlemen, gentlemen... affairs of state must take precedence over... uh... the Affairs of State." It seems that Aery's marriage to his sister, Rhaella, was not an ideal union. Jaime remembers, in AFFC, that Aerys grew aroused by political executions. He sent for Rhaella, after he burned the Hand Lord Chelsted, and Jaime was forced to listen as Aerys raped her. Presumably, Dany was the product.

So after know Aerys was a sexual predator and guessing that Tyrion might not be Tywin's son, I started expanding my guesses at Aerys' activities. If he took Joanna once, why not twice? We know from Barristan that Aerys was crazy about Joanna. If Cersei and Jaime were Aerys' bastards, it might explain their predilection for incest.

If Aerys raped and impregnated Lyanna, it would explain Rhaegar's actions during Brandon's arrival at KL to Rickard's death.... and it would make Jon Aerys' ******* son. Jon is a Snow. He is Snow to the core, though he has Stark tendencies. If Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna, then Jon is not a Snow at all.

And if Aerys fathered Tyrion and/or Jon, then they are Dany's brothers... fit consorts for the Dragon Queen.

And that is how I reached seven. Rhaegar, Caersei, Jaeme, Tyraen, Viserys, Jon, and Daenerys.

I understand that this requires GRRM to go to the rape, pregnancy, unknown ******* plot not once... but three times. It's clunky and heavy handed. This alone make me leery... but I think that at least once it occurred. Cersei and Jaime... or Tyrion... or Jon is Aery's *******.

And when the number came out to seven, I tried to fit it into the faces of Faith of the Seven. I also tried to fit Aerys and his children into the two Targaryen prophecies (TPTWP and Three Heads) and the R'hllor prophecy of AAR. And I tried to keep in mind Mirri Mazz Duur's prophecy, Maggy's prophecy of the Valonqar, and the dream of the commoners that an endless summer will come.

I could not make Jaime the Prince, AAR, or a Head, but I believe he is the valonqar before Tyrion. We know that Cersei leaps to the wrong conclusions regularly. She assumes Tyrion is the valonqar, but Jaime is also her younger brother. If Aerys is Cersei's father and if Cersei assumes that valonqar is gender specific like Aemon assumed the Valyrian word for prince was, then Dany could be the valonqar. And Maggy said Cersei would be replaced by a younger more beautiful Queen.... her sister, perhaps?

 

[Judderman]

a truelly great and crazy theory.
Tyrion was so proud of Jaime and wished him to carry on his legacy. Would he not have revealed hints in conversation or reaction at some point if he suspected Jaime and Cersei were not truelly his? Surely he would be aware of such adultery if it occurred. It seems unlikely he wouldn't have found out about repeated soirees through his network.

 

[Reivax26]

I think if Jamie hadn't lost his hand then he would have defended Tyrion but it makes me wonder if Tywin and Cersei would have let it happen.

 

[Dunneroo]

A thing to ponder; if Jaime had not had his hand cut off would he have stood for little brother Tyrion in the trial?

I think Jaime would absolutely stood for Tyrion if he still had his sword hand. This is evidenced by Jaime helping Tyrion escape.

The real question is, whats going to happen when they meet again? By now Jaime has to be pretty upset at Tyrion regarding Tywin's death. This quote by Tyrion could be hinting at a spicy reunion.

"At my finger. This one. Lord Tywin was sitting on a privy, so I put a crossbow bolt through his bowels to see if he really did **** gold. He didn't. A pity, I could have used some gold. I also slew my mother somewhat earlier. Oh, an my nephew Joffrey, I poisened him at his wedding feast and watched him choke to death. Di the cheesemonger leave that part out? I mean to add my brother and sister to the list before I'm done, if it please your queen" - Tyrion speaking to JonCon

Whether he is jesting or serious, I guess that is up for interpretation from the readers.

 

[Judderman]

Tyrion's mouth sometimes goes ahead of his thoughts when he is angry. He regretted what he rashly said to Jaime when he last saw him, as Jaime now things of him as a horror.