Some military questions (story-relevant)

[Mirannan]

I have a question or two for anyone with knowledge of the British ground military - in which I am sadly lacking.

The first question is a fairly big one; how is a force of (for the sake of argument) 5000 organised if it's in an occupation role? Similarly to the situation in Afghanistan, for example. Specifically, how many layers of bases are there before one gets to the "sharp end" and what facilities exist at the various levels? I'm assuming that there are very small command posts at the front lines, with maybe half a dozen admin and signals type staff, with bases of gradually increasing size going towards the main base in country.

The second question is a little more specific. Do such people as catering, signals and command admin staff routinely have weapons readily (as in worn or propped up against a desk) available, if they do what sort of weapons (rifles or sidearms) and also if they do how far back from the front does one have to get before people are generally not armed - apart from designated security personnel, of course?

This is in the writing discussion section because I need the info for a story. If placing is not appropriate, by all means move it.

 

[Tower75]

I have a question or two for anyone with knowledge of the British ground military - in which I am sadly lacking.

The first question is a fairly big one; how is a force of (for the sake of argument) 5000 organised if it's in an occupation role? Similarly to the situation in Afghanistan, for example. Specifically, how many layers of bases are there before one gets to the "sharp end" and what facilities exist at the various levels? I'm assuming that there are very small command posts at the front lines, with maybe half a dozen admin and signals type staff, with bases of gradually increasing size going towards the main base in country.

The second question is a little more specific. Do such people as catering, signals and command admin staff routinely have weapons readily (as in worn or propped up against a desk) available, if they do what sort of weapons (rifles or sidearms) and also if they do how far back from the front does one have to get before people are generally not armed - apart from designated security personnel, of course?

This is in the writing discussion section because I need the info for a story. If placing is not appropriate, by all means move it.

I don't if this will be of any help, my knowledge is built up through my own interest in military history and in also having a number of friends who are ex-services, both with the UK and US.

Basically, and I know this'll cause rolled eyes, but: it all depends.

Take Camp Bastion in Afghanistan, which holds 28,000-ish troops, it is the main UK base in Afghanistan, it's basically a town, with permanent buildings and streets, etc.

Flowing out from Bastion are Forward Observation Bases which can be quasi-temporary bases set up to provide administration, logistical and preparation for an Army Group's next phase, or it could be there simply to watch "that hill over there."

Contrary to popular belief, the military has never been as well organised as it likes to think it is, things are done sometimes, just because. This is like troops arriving in the desert with green camo, or the Scots Dragoon Guards arriving in Iraq with NO TANKS, or troops painting their armour white with mops during the winter campaign in the Second World War. War is not an organised event, and nothing goes to plan. Things just happen: because. You don't have to stick to a "set of rules" when discussing your army's layout. If they're laid out that way, just explain why they are.

As to weapons carried by "second line troops", again, it depends on the situation and what they can get away with. If the enemy is outside the base, then the cook will probably sport a handgun, if the job is a desk job on the third line, then the clerk probably isn't armed. But, saying that, if you can get away with it, you can basically do anything.

 

[Darkchild130]

I was a British infantry soldier for 11 years and have been a contractor for two. It depends on how you want your 5000 troops organised. They should be several battlegroups of roughly a thousand troops each and they could all be in one central base, or several FOBs. Outside of these FOBs (where support troops often live) you will have PBs (patrol bases) of various sizes, which can be anything from company (100 men) down to section strength (8 men) depending on the importance/enemy threat. Only combat troops will live and fight from the PBs with minimal support and facilities. When I say minimal, I mean ******** in buckets and sleeping in trenches within compounds etc. literally nothing outside of what you can carry. The more established a PB gets, the more facilities appear, often made by the troops that live there and passed onto the next lot. It's a very organic process of improvisation.

The battlegroups will rotate their manpower from the FOBs through the PBs so theoretically everyone gets time "off the line" but this rarely works out as planned.

Support troops are generally armed with whatever basic weapon the army has (in our case L85A2) with generally worse optics/attachments, or pistols. They will be stored in armouries and issued dependant on threat. Hope this helps.

 

[tinkerdan]

If you want a good laugh and an idea how disorganized things can get read The Good Soldier Švejk by Jaroslav Hašek if you can get a copy.

Preferably the one translated by Cecil Parrott who seems to have a fair command of the original language it's written in.

 

[ralphkern]

You seem to be angling towards a Brigade (Regiment) level force there with talking about a force of 5000, and the actual fighting side would depend on the specific function of the regiment in question. I would suggest having a look on open source, wiki etc and essentially picking one 'off the shelf' that seems to meet your needs, and then an Orbat (order of battle, how many folks are where) can be deduced from there.

My own personal knowledge is limited. I was in the TA at university in 2000 to 2002. I was in whats called the OTC (Yes darkchild I know you're probably rolling your eyes at me ) which is for a total mix of officer cadets from Army air corps to Royal Logistics and Gurkhas to the Yeomanry, and we had to do a series of qualifications that were standard whatever cap badge you had on your beret.

They involved courses on weapon systems such as the SA80 rifle, LSW (light support weapon), GPMG (General Purpose Machine Gun... you will never feel more manly than when your firing one of them!) and Browning HP. Field craft (you grow to hate sheep!), section (8 men) through to company (3 platoons) level tactics etc. They were called Military Training Qualifications. In other words, every soldier, regardless of job, was expected to know which way to point the business end of a weapon and not be completely useless in a fight. I'm sure Darkchild would have an opinion on whether that means they're a help or hindrance in practice but the that's the theory anyway.

If your story is in the near future, you have to consider that (in my eyes, with great regret) we are likely going to see a massive reduction in having a professional standing army and the slack (or attempt to take up the slack) being taken up by reserve units, essentially what was the TA and likely a lot more use of PMCs (private military contractors like Darkchild). To a certain extent, if you go down that route, you will have a lot more flexibility in what you want your Orbat to look like, as, as far as I'm aware, they haven't really nailed down too much in that regards.

I will add my limited knowledge is 12 years out of date in regards to the training side of things.

 

[Mirannan]

So let's make this clear: Am I right in thinking that the only place in a military organisation where people would routinely carry weapons is way out in front at the patrol bases? That would actually be useful for my story, but I would rather the story fits the facts of current doctrine at least approximately.

If this story ever gets published, I'm probably going to have to put in, somehow, some sort of "author doesn't really know anything" disclaimer in any case.

Thanks for the suggestion about looking for open source data; didn't realise there would be any.

 

[jastius]

the soldiers have their kit and the officers have thier sidearms.
as you get back into support roles there are less weapons accessible as such when you get into the specific roles such as medical staff and clerks, but there are always guards and security persons either in or patrolling the unsecured areas. cooks have access to knives and each kp assignee usually has one about him.. mechanics have blinking great wrenches and such they can cause mayhem with, and as for engineers, a bulldozer is fairly bulletproof from the right angles and will go through about anything a tank will if they are not firing mortars to get into it.. if it were a base each trooper (i know its troop still for one singular soldier but i can't wrap my head around that particular plural singular) each would have his weapons kit including his rifle as service ready but stored away in a locker unless they were on field duty.. (think of it as a lady with her purse.. never without it except in the house and then always knows where it is, has it to hand.. but anywheres out of the house always has the purse.. ) invading forces stay armed period. general orders in hostile terrain.. this was because of guerrilla tactics where hostile dissidents will make an uncover incursion have been ubiquitous throughout history even before the trojan horse.

 

[Darkchild130]

The singular for an individual trooper is trooper, the plural is troops, a platoon of tank soldiers is a troop. Jastius your lady and purse analogy is completely wrong. Weapon carriage is always threat dependant, if you need it, it is never more than an arm's distance away, if not,then they are centralised in secure armouries. It is all very methodical, people don't just randomly store their weapons wherever they are based.

Knives, wrenches etc are not classified as weapons. Infantry get sidearms also, I cannot speak for support arms but none ever did when I was in Iraq or Afghanistan. In fact, I never saw any support troops with weapons "inside the wire" as, with the exception of combat logistics patrols, support troops very rarely leave the FOBs. The exception is camp security, but this is so obvoious I didn't mention it previously.
In Basrah palace, we carried our weapons at all times, because we were under siege. In Afghanistan I worked out of HQ ISAF in Kabul which was inside the security perimeter so my weapon was locked up until I left the base. I am an infantryman, so my primary purpose is fighting and even I didn't always carry a weapon, it is always situation dependant.
Also, it's worth mentioning that support arms do not get issued the full compliment of war fighting kit, so you will rarely see them armed with more than basic rifle or pistol (with combat logistics patrols being the exception, I saw those guys rocking machine guns on several occasions) so no MGs, no mortars, grenade launchers, shotguns, missiles etc.

And Ralphkern, my experiences are biased, but TA are some of the most enthusiastic yet incompetent soldiers I ever met. If I could instill some of their keenness into my men I would've had super soldiers. And yes, the GPMG is the god of the battlefield. There's a reason we call him "the General"

 

[Mirannan]

Darkchild130 - Thanks for the info, especially as you're in the game (so to speak). Thanks for your service to your country, too.

Off on a tangent just a little; but are the weapons carried by ceremonial guards usually loaded, or the guards carrying them at least also carrying magazines to put into their weapons? I'm talking about the soldiers guarding Buckingham Palace, for example.

 

[Darkchild130]

No, their magazines (and it is always a magazine, NEVER a "clip") are unloaded. The ceremonial guard are purely that, ceremonial. The protection of the Royal family is down to the close protection details of the police.

 

[Mirannan]

No, their magazines (and it is always a magazine, NEVER a "clip") are unloaded. The ceremonial guard are purely that, ceremonial. The protection of the Royal family is down to the close protection details of the police.

Thanks again. Just one more thing, derailing my own thread: Am I right in thinking that a clip (in weapon terminology terms) is actually a gadget that carries a number of cartridges (not bullets ) to make it easier to load a rifle with a fixed magazine (old British Lee Enfield, for example) ?

 

[Darkchild130]

A Lee-Enfield doesn't have a fixed magazine, but yes, a clip is a small metal strip that holds several rounds, to allow them to be loaded into magazines faster.

 

[Tower75]

Ah. Firearms. Something I do know about. Been shooting since I was 17 and I'm a member of the National Rifle Association, main interest in military arms. I might be able to help if you have questions.

That didn't mean to sound quite so self-serving as it did. Sorry.