Would you encourage someone to start writing?

[Brian G Turner]

If someone came up to me now, and said they had an idea for a story, I don't think I could encourage them to write it.

The problem, to me, is that writing stories isn't about simply putting words together - it's about learning about storytelling, and that is a discipline in itself, and one that someone must spend years learning.

If a person has been writing fiction all their lives, in one form of another, then perhaps it's their calling and they just need to hone their skills, and I accept that.

But someone who has never spent time trying to write anything, who sees a couple of films - and thinks that, because they would have taken the plot in a different direction, means they have the ability to write? No.

From what I think I've learned, writing is never simply a matter of ideas. Ideas are fun to play with, but having an idea does not make someone a writer.

And if such a person is encouraged to write, it's never emphasised just how hard and just how long it will take.

Now - I am not in a downer here. I'm not depressed, not lacking in confidence, and while life has challenges I feel I can meet them all.

But I notice people with any kind of passing interest to write are generally always encouraged.

My contention is perhaps they shouldn't be - that perhaps it needs emphasising that writing is not a natural talent, stringing words together does not make a story, and that it will takes years and years of hard work to have any inclination of success - but that success is unlikely to bring in much of a financial reward. And that to think otherwise is to encourage disappointment and delusion?

I just wondered - am I the only one who thinks this?

Just a thought for discussion.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not criticising anything that happens at chronicles. I'm talking about the general trend to encourage in the wider world.

 

[HareBrain]

I agree that no one should be encouraged to write as a path to fame and fortune. I was going to say that I would encourage someone with an interest in writing to play with short stories and so on, as play and exploration, but now I think about it, I probably wouldn't do that either. Someone with a strong inclination will do it anyway, without any external encouragement, which is as it should be.

(That said, I have benefited from encouragement when I've been writing for some time but have fallen into despondency, and I'd try to do the same for others in that situation. I think that's different from someone just starting out.)

I think perhaps a more interesting question is whether anyone should be actively discouraged from writing, especially if they see it as a long-term career, on the grounds that they might well end up wasting vast swathes of their life and could easily be happier doing something else. As to which, I'm not sure.

 

[Mouse]

Absolutely I would, and I do all the time. I even tell people who have no interest in writing that they should write! You don't have to write for publication. You can just write for fun.

I love writing and I want to share what I love doing with other people.

 

[Boneman]

Look, if we're suffering, why shouldn't they??

I think the value of years of experience in the writing trenches can help, because we can give a realistic view of the war of attrition, what they might expect as they crouch down for years, trying to win through.

Christopher Hitchens said (and I can't find the article it was originally published in, but google him and there's loads on this) 'Everyone has a book in them, and in most cases that's where it should stay.' There's a youtube film on him, if you're interested, and a lot of what he says does make some sense.

It's the expectation that so many 1st time writers have, that is unrealistic - that it's easy to write a book. (And easy to overuse 'that' as a word...) I do encourage others to write, and warn them it's going to take a lot longer and require a lot more work than they realise, but it's the creative journey that will bring a measure of satisfaction, whether they get published or not. But if their only focus is on become published, then they need to be realistic or risk disappointment (and as HB says, it could be a vast swathe of time) at the end of it.

Oh, and to write as a hobby, first and foremost.

 

[Overread]

My contention is perhaps they shouldn't be - that perhaps it needs emphasising that writing is not a natural talent, stringing words together does not make a story, and that it will takes years and years of hard work to have any inclination of success - but that success is unlikely to bring in much of a financial reward. And that to think otherwise is to encourage disappointment and delusion?

I can agree that one should not be encouraged to write as a method to make it to a quick buck. Writing is unlikely to make you rich.

However that same line is true for pretty much everything in the world; if there were short, easy cuts to being rich we'd all be taking them. There is risk, challenge, difficulty etc.. in all things. Some more than others and some its just different to others; but its there in all things.

There are also few if any real "natural talents" that are a pure natural born with talent. Most people are not "Born" with a talent. They might be born with an interest, or with a skill set that leans them toward developing certain talents or they might have "pushy parents" who impose upon them a focus in a specific area (or just keen parents who influence them greatly - or a teacher in a specific subject).

Any activity is a matter of learning and aspiring; some will make it and some won't. If you kick the legs out from under them before they've even made it to the start line then they clearly will never ever be able to make it.
Furthermore if we take the analogy of a race further consider that not everyone races to win. Look at the vast numbers who run the London Marathon - a great many are not running to win; the experience of the run itself and what it represents to them is what's important. They are not in-it to win they are in it for something else.

Thus I've no problem encouraging someone to write, or take photos, or run, or ride, etc... Sure I won't say to them that they'll be a millionaire this time next year; but heck I won't discourage and deny them the chance. Sure it might be hard work; most good things ARE hard work.

 

[Dozmonic]

I was thinking about this the other day. I think I'd do it in the style of some sadistic kung fu teacher and try to give them some idea of just how much they're going to fail and how long it's going to take. And if that doesn't put them off, they might stick at it

 

[Overread]

It's the expectation that so many 1st time writers have, that is unrealistic - that it's easy to write a book.

Most people who want to do something often view it as being far easier than it actually is. Because they are so inexperienced that they don't know what they don't know. Furthermore when they start out most people don't set high goalposts. They set quite low ones and often they need encouragement and support to push those goal posts higher once they reach them - to push further and further. They also need the guidance in how to find and develop their skills to rise higher.

Some people are different and will set higher goalposts (this can be a downside if they then falter as they try to reach them); whilst others will be great self-learners (having already found the skill to find information) and won't need as much support, being already capable of finding information.


I see the exact same thing in photography - lots of beginners think its just point and shoot and you're done; many can't self-learn the subject without some input from others (when you don't know what you don't know its hard to find information on what you don't know).



Note many say that with Google there should be no excuses for not being able to self learn; but that's wrong. Google is actually quite an advanced tool to use; you've got to ask it the right question and then you've actually got to have some idea of the subject so that you can sift through the results to avoid highly opinionated or inaccurate (or flat out wrong) information.

 

[Overread]

I was thinking about this the other day. I think I'd do it in the style of some sadistic kung fu teacher and try to give them some idea of just how much they're going to fail and how long it's going to take. And if that doesn't put them off, they might stick at it

This method of teaching can work, but its very hard to do. It's important to realise that aiming to break a persons self confidence and to break them down ONLY works if the teacher is there to then rebuild that student. For that to work the student-teacher relationship has to be enforced; there has to be some reason for the student to not be able to avoid the teacher. Otherwise what happens is you remove a persons self confidence and, they walk off. They've no reason to return nor pursue because you've basically aimed at breaking them.

That's no failing of character nor determination, its simply a realisation that you've broken that person (we all have our breaking point).


So yes this can work -but you'd best be ready, willing and capable of rebuilding that person. Of rebuilding the self confidence and the skills of that person.

 

[HareBrain]

Actually, I wonder if encouragement or discouragement from others really has any long-term effect on what people end up doing. If they're really into something, they'll shrug off at least casual discouragement (not counting the determined sadistic stuff); if they're not into it, they'll probably drop it after a while anyway, even if they are given encouragement. Thinking back over my own hobbies and activities, that's certainly been the case. The important thing is to have the opportunity to try things out.

 

[Overread]

HareBrain I suspect its not a straight case of encouragement or discouragement but the nature of it and who gives it. Even minor discouragement from a person the individual highly respects could be enough to turn them away from pursuing their interest - or might cause them to set very low goalposts with little view to advancing beyond them.

Similarly very minor encouragement from a highly respected person can be enough to make even a casual interest suddenly a major focus for an individual.

Words are words and might mean the same thing when written on paper; but we should never ignore that the who who says the words is often a critically important thing; sometimes even more so than the words that are spoken

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I think it's hard to imagine somebody writing without the thought of publication (and by implication, fame & fortune) afterwards. Although it is fun to write for yourself, and I expect most published authors have done that at some point, we all want our tales to be read by others.

I'd encourage somebody, but tell them what the odds are - massively against you.

 

[Bowler1]

I'd encourage somebody, but tell them what the odds are - massively against you.

Also, to have fun. Not easy to do that, not when your told your writing is poor and may never see the light of day. Even if you work hard and improve your writing, it may never see the light of day. It's easy to have dark days, when the world feels to be against you (the world is not against you, the world doesn't care, it's nothing personal). So Zen like, accept this fact and carry on writing. The creative process should be reward enough. There is always the dream at the end of the rainbow, with the little pot of gold and a little laughing Irishman (don't trust him) for the lucky few. It could be you, it could be anyone, so keep at it.


So if you want to write, you'll write no matter what.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

As much as I'd encourage anyone to do anything else they were interested in. Writing is hard, but so is any other profession I've tried my hand at. I would advise them to have a day job too, though.

 

[Dozmonic]

This method of teaching can work, but its very hard to do. It's important to realise that aiming to break a persons self confidence and to break them down ONLY works if the teacher is there to then rebuild that student. For that to work the student-teacher relationship has to be enforced; there has to be some reason for the student to not be able to avoid the teacher. Otherwise what happens is you remove a persons self confidence and, they walk off. They've no reason to return nor pursue because you've basically aimed at breaking them.

That's no failing of character nor determination, its simply a realisation that you've broken that person (we all have our breaking point).

So yes this can work -but you'd best be ready, willing and capable of rebuilding that person. Of rebuilding the self confidence and the skills of that person.

I disagree that it'd be my responsibility in the slightest. If I break them that easily, they would never continue as a writer, I've just saved them some time. At some point they'll find another passion, one they can take the failure in. Or they'll sit and watch TV all day, trying nothing and failing nothing.

IF, given that, they carry on and continue and put in effort and make mistakes and THEN seek help then yes, they deserve some help and guidance, absolutely.

 

[HareBrain]

I agree with Dozmonic, I think. You can't be discouraged away from something you really love, and anyone who doesn't really love writing would surely be better off doing something else.

 

[barrett1987]

I would encourage.
Writing is amazing.

 

[Overread]

I would say that you're both working to the ideal of a person who won't consider challenge a challenge. That no matter what you say you won't dissuade them which gives the concept that your worth of your words to them is little to nothing.

Some people are like that, they don't care what others say (within reason) so you can say its hard and they won't care because they don't value your viewpoint on that matter.

However others are not the same; to them your words will count far more heavily. As such if you present the thing they love or aspire to achieve within as something so impossibly hard that they could never and will never reach even the lowest of targets that can most certainly, be enough to turn them away from ever trying. They'll never realise their fullest potential.

It's also important to realise that most people are made of both halves and that your influence upon them varies on who you are. Consider if a famous and skilled writer turns to you and says that you're no good, that the challenge is too great and that you'll never get there. If that person is just "a" great writer to you you might ignore it; if on the other hand they are a person you look up to and respect that can be enough to make you reconsider - you might well think that if this great person who knows far more than you considers that its not possible for you to achieve then why bother. You might well keep writing, but only in your free time with no aspiration to improve.



Think of it like teaching children. You don't teach children to count by saying that numbers are infinite and that they'll never ever count that high ever. You start by introducing big numbers as targets. First its get all the way to 10, then 100, then 1000 and so on. Eventually they don't need those targets as they've realised their potential to count as high as they would like and need to.
Adults are much the same (though we might try and hide it). Whilst the situation is different the concept remains quite the same. Broken into stages almost any subject, even the most complex, can be taught to most people provided they are willing and confident to learn. Take away the willingness or the confidence and they fast lose the ability to perform - again you can see this in a school environment - the students who are oft disruptive have lost the willingness to learn and often alongside that they've often got the idea that they never can achieve anyway.

 

[Toby Frost]

Writing is enjoyable, but not immediately enjoyable, in the way that watching a film or playing a computer game is. It's more like constructing something. As a result, if you want to reap any sort of reward from it (publication or otherwise) you will need to be in it for the long haul, and so will need to be fairly committed anyhow. So I would give that as a pretty major caveat: it's not a casual pastime.

A while back, I read an interview with an author who I think has written quite a lot of rubbish. He was saying that one was either born with the skill to write or not. I disagree. Most people, given enough time, can be trained to write to a fair standard, and communicate ideas clearly*. In a few cases, writers whose technical skills are pretty mediocre have done extremely well, because they happened to be writing exactly the sort of stuff that big publishers thought people wanted to read. However I think that, much like singing, a small percentage of people will never be able to write well (I am pretty much tone deaf, out of interest).

So overall I would say that it can be an enjoyable and worthwhile way of spending time, but not an easy one. I would recommend writing in the same way that I would recommend taking up carpentry, judo or horse riding.

*But rarely are in normal life. Many people mistake long-windedness for skill, and the gibberish that I've read in corporate publications and government documents defies parody.

 

[HareBrain]

Overread, I'm guessing you have some role in (or at least more experience of than I do) adult education, and I respect your view a lot. However, in the case of a writer seeking to complete a novel worthy of a readership wider than friends and family, I don't think the kind of encouragement you're talking about would be much of a factor. When writing my last post I did consider (though I then deleted it) the question of what might have happened if Susan Cooper, say, had dissed my work in its early stages, and I concluded that in the medium-to-long term, it wouldn't have made any difference, however crushing it might have been at first -- and I'm someone who can get discouraged easily in anything, if I don't love it.

I would encourage anyone to *explore* writing, expecially if they need such encouragement to get over a pre-existing reluctance (for example, because they have some idea of writing that means they don't believe they can do it themselves). I've known several people who have written for a while and then given up, who would still say they gained something from it. But the kind of encouragement I took Brian to mean was the urging to embark on or continue a big writing project in the face of obvious difficulties and the small likelihood of success. I don't know that this would serve anyone who wasn't already truly committed. But I might be wrong.

 

[Dozmonic]

Some people are like that, they don't care what others say (within reason) so you can say its hard and they won't care because they don't value your viewpoint on that matter.

However others are not the same; to them your words will count far more heavily. As such if you present the thing they love or aspire to achieve within as something so impossibly hard that they could never and will never reach even the lowest of targets that can most certainly, be enough to turn them away from ever trying. They'll never realise their fullest potential.

And it's still not my responsibility, unless I am a mentor to them, which wasn't the case in the original question. Would I encourage someone to start writing? No, I wouldn't. I'd let them know what they're in for. If they then choose to carry on, good for them. I wouldn't actively dissuade them, either. Just set it out for what it is.

People should be independent and responsible enough to find their own motivations for what they wish to do.