4.08 The Mountain and the Viper

[Culhwch]

Unexpected visitors arrive in Mole's Town. Littlefinger's motives are questioned. Ramsay tries to prove himself to his father. Tyrion's fate is decided.

 

[Lenny]

I was wishing so hard that Benioff and Weiss would go all out with their deviations from the books. But they didn't.

At least not where I hoped. Instead, Sansa revealed her identity, which was quite the surprise!

Oh, and Arya's laugh was priceless.

 

[svalbard]

I was wishing so hard that Benioff and Weiss would go all out with their deviations from the books. But they didn't.

At least not where I hoped. Instead, Sansa revealed her identity, which was quite the surprise!

Oh, and Arya's laugh was priceless.

So was I. That was a cracking, good episode. The Viper, what a character!

 

[alchemist]

Ugh...

Just, ugh...

Goodbye, you bloody showboating fool.

 

[Culhwch]

They handled that scene very well, I thought. I was just as frustrated by the outcome as I was when reading the book...

And I agree, Lenny - Arya laughing was just great.

 

[Aun Doorback]

How different was the end scene in the book - Still shocked!

 

[svalbard]

How different was the end scene in the book - Still shocked!

Accurate enough. As Lenny said in his post I was hoping the producers would deviate from the book, but alas, no. Only Martin would create such a vibrant character as The Red Viper and then dispense with him. That 3rd book in the series just delivered page after page. It really was remarkable.

 

[Aun Doorback]

Accurate enough. As Lenny said in his post I was hoping the producers would deviate from the book, but alas, no. Only Martin would create such a vibrant character as The Red Viper and then dispense with him. That 3rd book in the series just delivered page after page. It really was remarkable.

Was the ending so graphic?

 

[svalbard]

Very much so if I remember correctly.

 

[Culhwch]

I remember it being pretty graphic, yes, but words can't really compare with those brutal images...

 

[Dave]

Oh, and Arya's laugh was priceless.

Though given the number of people who die in Westeros, it couldn't have come as that great a surprise really.

And surely that result was a draw?

 

[Unseen Academical]

It was brilliant, so was the Red Wedding, and Joffey's death. The series is so good I have stopped reading the books, because I'd rather be genuinely surprised and shocked by a TV show than a book, because it is SO rare that a TV series doesn't follow a predictable well-worn road.

 

[paranoid marvin]

It was brilliant, so was the Red Wedding, and Joffey's death. The series is so good I have stopped reading the books, because I'd rather be genuinely surprised and shocked by a TV show than a book, because it is SO rare that a TV series doesn't follow a predictable well-worn road.

I agree. This is one of those rare times that watching a tv series is just as enjoyable as reading a book.

There was a much easier way for Tyrion to save himself though. If he had got Jaime to fight for him, then his father would have been in a real quandry. He wouldn't have wanted to risk his son being killed and would have got Cersei either to put up a lesser candidate or declared him innocent.


It also seemed completely out of character for Cersei to hate Tyrion so vehenmently. After all , if she had wanted him dead so earnestly, she would have done it a long time ago. She's intelligent enough to know that Tyrion wouldn't have killed her son in so obvious a manner. It was also a great opportunity for her to use Loras as her champion, and then she couldn;t lose. Either he wins, and Tyrion dies, or he loses and she doesn't then have to marry a man she despises.

 

[paranoid marvin]

As for the gruesomeness of the ending; yes that was pretty graphic. Not the first time that HBO have shown such bloody fighting. It reminded me very much of the eye-gouging fight in Deadwood (also by HBO).

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

Another day in Westeros.

Scary thing is the actor playing the Mountain is capable of doing all of that to another human considering he can lift 1000lb like a toddler picking up a toy and weighs twenty tons.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Marvin, the Loras idea is brilliant. A very large deviation from the book, though.

Also, the Mountain's actor is 441lbs according to Wikipedia. Certainly hefty, but not 20 tons.

The ending was brutal. I think that might be the only bit of the series I choose to skip when re-watching/listening to the commentaries (assuming there's a commentary option for this episode). The screams are perhaps even worse than the images.

I hardly ever come to these threads (no Sky so I get the DVDs, which come out ridiculously late and so I'm about 10 months behind everyone else), but had to comment on this episode.

 

[Boaz]

I don't know if it is ever mentioned in the show, but the reason Cersei hates Tyrion is because...

Spoiler

...she blames Tyrion for the death of their mother. This is partly because Cersei was nine at the time, partly because she wished she'd had a mother growing up, partly because Tyrion's physical appearance shames her, and partly because Tywin also blamed Tyrion.

She hates him as an adult because of his behavior. He drinks to excess. He visits prostitutes. And probably most grievous is the fact that Tyrion refuses to acknowledge her superiority or put himself under her control. This is especially aggravating to Cersei when Tyrion assumes the role of Hand. He does not kowtow to her whims and he actually threatens Joffrey. Instead of seeing this as a way to teach Joffrey reason or to curb his growing megalomania, Cersei really believes Tyrion is a threat.

Mayhaps Cersei should have named Loras as her champion, but she wanted Tyrion dead so badly that she named Gregor. Loras is not a master swordsman, though he may be the best jouster in the realm. Cersei plays the game of thrones one move at a time. She never looks two or three moves ahead. If she could, she'd see that Loras is not a threat either.

As for Tyrion... he needed a win. Jaime could not guarantee a victory no matter how much the brothers might have wanted it. Their interaction differs a bit in the books...

Spoiler

Jaime never showed himself to Tyrion before or during the trial. Tyrion did not know Jaime was even in town.

And I'm not sure if Tyrion wanted to even put Jaime on the spot. Tyrion could not have been sure that Jaime would have chosen him over Cersei... especially with Tywin's displeasure looming and the fact that Joffrey was Jaime's son. The enormity of the situation... Regicide... meant that Tywin had to be completely decisive and ruthless, even if it meant sacrificing Tyrion.... even if it meant sacrificing Jaime, if Jaime took Tyrion's side. The realm would not stand for Tywin to let his son(s) off because all the nobility would have assumed that Tywin approved of (if not actually planned) Joffrey's murder. No... even though Cersei only plays one move at a time, she'd finally cornered Tyrion.

Once accused of regicide by the Queen and judged by Tywin, Tyrion had to be proven guilty. So did he really do it?

 

[Ursa major]

I don't know if it is ever mentioned in the show, but the reason Cersei hates Tyrion is because...

Spoiler

...she blames Tyrion for the death of their mother. This is partly because Cersei was nine at the time, partly because she wished she'd had a mother growing up, partly because Tyrion's physical appearance shames her, and partly because Tywin also blamed Tyrion.

Re your first spoiler: it was mentioned at least twice. (I watched the box set of series/season 4 over the weekend and really enjoyed it**.)


** - As someone who likes listening to piano transcriptions of orchestral works, I can live with the changes, as the books and the show are, in effect, different works trying to work within different environments (as is the case with pianos and orchestras).

 

[Boaz]

Thanks, Bear. I'm trying to respect those who have not read. And I've sort of gotten into Van Cliburn over the last year and a half...

 

[thaddeus6th]

Better too many spoiler tags than too few.

On Jaime: he arrives much later in the books, which may be why he's never considered as a potential champion. They rejigged the order somewhat (likewise with what happens on and around the Wall in series 4).