Anyone else think Stannis is the most interesting Baratheon?

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Although I don't think the television adaptation has done a very good job with the character, does anyone else find Stannis terribly fascinating? His development as a character is highly underrated in my opinion, and he facilitates intriguing dialogues regarding utilitarian morality. I appreciate his adherence to honor and duty moreso than with a character like Ned because Stannis is more decidedly gray and morally ambiguous. I'm excited to see where his character will go in Winds of Winter.
 
Count me in! Stannis is not only the most interesting Baratheon—he's one of the most interesting characters in A Song of Ice and Fire as a whole (at least for me, that is). Actually, I think this quote was basically the beginning of my interest in the character:

Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.

It's pretty obvious for me that both Robert and Renly are supposed to be attractive a priori, but Stannis? He's problematic at best, stubborn and determined to do things his own way without any regard for what's best for him or others. His love of law and rules makes me think about an obnoxious paladin or champion of law, the kind you love to hate (or in my case, love to love :D ).

Best regards,

F.
 
In AGOT, GRRM wrote something about Robert's appetites. Not only was he a man of huge appetites, but he knew how to enjoy them as well.... or something along those lines. Robert lived in the moment. He never looked back... and he rarely looked ahead.

Renly knew how to live in the moment, but he also eyed his future as a king. Like Robert, Renly did not live with regrets... and he also understood the game and how it was played. He did not concern himself with honor and duty. Renly understood power and ambition.

Both Robert and Renly lived for their desires sex, alcohol, war, power... They made friends easily and built up relationships to bolster their power. They knew that relationships, friendships, and real community requires give and take. Everyone takes turns on top, on bottom, as the joker, as the butt of jokes, as the hero, as the watcher, as the lover, and as the stranger...

Stannis? His lodestone was duty and the law. And he only compromised once in life... when he backed Robert instead of Aerys II... and it galls him to this day! He regrets it because it shames him.

Stannis began his pursuit of his inheritance with the law behind him. He expected his family and his bannermen to support his claim because it was their honor bound duty. And his hopes were dashed because Renly made his own claim and most of the Stormlords followed.

And then Stannis found a way to keep his claim alive... by dying to honor.

He sold his soul to Melisandre.

Stannis justified murder saying it was his birthright. He justified theft by calling it national security. He justified black magic with religious fervor. He justified kinslaying by saying it was in the national interest.

He's trying to learn to be diplomatic. Diplomacy is the opposite of inflexibility... and it killed Stannis to pardon the Stormlords who supported Renly. It rankled him to not smash the Night's Watch into submission. It irked him to come hat in hand to the northern lords and clans. But you can see he's trying to forge alliances on trust and friendship which came so easily to his brothers.

Would it have been better for Stannis to have lacked his brothers' morals in the first place rather than to have sold his soul while calling it duty?
 
Okay, so I did not really address the original question... Is Stannis the most interesting of the Baratheon brothers?

Interesting? Yes. He lasts a lot longer and is involved in more of the political game than his brothers.

Likable? No. Robert was kind of fun when he was not beating his wife. Renly was a great character. He was terrible on the show, but great in the books.

I think the main reason Stannis is such an interesting character is because his story is told by Davos. In all other POV's besides Davos' and Cressen's, we learn that Stannis is cold, inflexible, legalistic, self-righteous, arrogant, unapproachable, and unforgiving. And yet through Davos' POV (and Cressen's), we learn that some people will die for Stannis. It does not seem to jive with the other perspectives... but Davos and Cressen actually have been through the fire (figuratively speaking) with Stannis... and they know his measure when the heat is on. If Davos was hostile to Stannis, I think we'd also be hostile to Stannis.
 
i have to say.. No... i don't find him more interesting than his brothers.

Perhaps my perceptions were coloured by the commentary provided in POVs before Davos' came along... but i have issues with letter of the law types, and for Stannis i have no time. I honestly skimmed most of Davos' chapters... Cressen's too... I tried caring, i really did... but there's nothing i can like about the character, so i don't find him interesting at all as a result.
That he has a VERY small circle of very loyal people around him is interesting - but he himself is not. Davos is somewhat interesting. Melissandre is VERY interesting. Stannis... he's her pawn. Nothing more or less.

Renly was by far the most interesting. The "what-would-have-been" had he not been murdered by his own brother - a stable, united six kingdoms and a strong, ironborn fightable North. Renly had all the potential.
Even Robert was more interesting in half a book than Stannis in 5.
 
In AGOT, GRRM wrote something about Robert's appetites. Not only was he a man of huge appetites, but he knew how to enjoy them as well.... or something along those lines. Robert lived in the moment. He never looked back... and he rarely looked ahead.

Renly knew how to live in the moment, but he also eyed his future as a king. Like Robert, Renly did not live with regrets... and he also understood the game and how it was played. He did not concern himself with honor and duty. Renly understood power and ambition.

Both Robert and Renly lived for their desires sex, alcohol, war, power... They made friends easily and built up relationships to bolster their power. They knew that relationships, friendships, and real community requires give and take. Everyone takes turns on top, on bottom, as the joker, as the butt of jokes, as the hero, as the watcher, as the lover, and as the stranger...

Stannis? His lodestone was duty and the law. And he only compromised once in life... when he backed Robert instead of Aerys II... and it galls him to this day! He regrets it because it shames him.

Stannis began his pursuit of his inheritance with the law behind him. He expected his family and his bannermen to support his claim because it was their honor bound duty. And his hopes were dashed because Renly made his own claim and most of the Stormlords followed.

And then Stannis found a way to keep his claim alive... by dying to honor.

He sold his soul to Melisandre.

Stannis justified murder saying it was his birthright. He justified theft by calling it national security. He justified black magic with religious fervor. He justified kinslaying by saying it was in the national interest.

He's trying to learn to be diplomatic. Diplomacy is the opposite of inflexibility... and it killed Stannis to pardon the Stormlords who supported Renly. It rankled him to not smash the Night's Watch into submission. It irked him to come hat in hand to the northern lords and clans. But you can see he's trying to forge alliances on trust and friendship which came so easily to his brothers.

Would it have been better for Stannis to have lacked his brothers' morals in the first place rather than to have sold his soul while calling it duty?

I think your interpretation of the character is incredibly one dimensional, and actually conflicts with George's own statements regarding Stannis. Your point that Stannis has placed himself into a somewhat Faustian bargain is somewhat legitimate, but his relationship with Melisandre far more nuanced than you suppose, nor is he any kind of religious fanatic if you pay attention to the text. I'll start with Renly though, since that's the easiest thing to address. Although in the books, unlike the show, Stannis is unaware that Melisandre means to assassinate Renly via blood magic, I have to question, why is assassination morally reprehensible, but Renly's desire to slaughter Stannis with his own bannerman morally legitimate? This isn't to say fratricide is a good thing, but in war, assassination is no more or less honorable than having a bunch of bannermen kill your brother for you. I find that his assassination of Cortney Penrose is a good deal more troublesome than the killing of Renly.

Secondly, I find your claim that Stannis' adherence to honor and duty is a complete farce meant to disguise his absolute desire for power is highly suspect. We'll start with the Wall, which is really what demonstrates to the reader that there's more to Stannis as a character, even if he is becoming a bit of a political pragmatist as the series advances. His decision to save the Wall from the wildlings marks a turning point in his development, the point in which he realizes what it truly means to be a king. To say this was merely a power play dressed up in duty is to ignore quotes such as:

"Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." - Stannis

"Few of the birds that Aemon had sent off had returned as yet. One reached Stannis, though. One found Dragonstone, and a king who still cared." - Samwell Tarley

"Stannis fights for the realm, the ironmen for thralls and plunder." - Jon Snow

"And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI." - George R Martin

Now, this isn't to suggest that Stannis doesn't commit a host of morally questionable acts throughout the series, but rather to demonstrate that he IS grudgingly, trying to do the right thing. He's the Inspector Javert of Westeros, and its his duty that compels him more so than any other factor. I think there's a lot of redeeming qualities in Stannis, and we see those when he castrates his own men for raping Wildling women, or when he raises a commoner such as Davos Seaworth to the Hand of the King. Stannis, unlike most in Westeros, judges men by their merits, and not just their hereditary titles. I find that these remarkable qualities, his deadpan humor, and lack of patience for bull ****, makes him something of a stoic badass. In fact, it's actually his lack of charisma, his cold unyielding personality, that makes him so radically different from his brothers and much more endearing as a result.

This is why I think your claim that he's completely sold his soul to Melisandre really ignores a good portion of the source material to work as an interpretation. Stannis has plenty of autonomy, especially when he gets up North, and I certainly think that while he is at times in danger of losing his soul, such as when he contemplates burning Edric Storm (though only after weighing his life against the life of his daughter and every child in Westeros), but he certainly hasn't lost it yet. His relationship with Rhillor is something that is growing more and more ambiguous, however, and I'm interested to see where George takes it in Winds of Winter.

Again, Stannis is decidedly gray, and I think this moral ambiguity is what makes him a good deal more interesting than Ned Stark. There's a reason why Jon Snow, one of the few moral compasses left in the series, comes to sympathize with Stannis' cause though, and I for one definitely don't think he can be reduced to some power hungry religious fanatic or Melisandre's lapdog.
 
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I have a crazy crackpot theory...

What if Stannis really is AA reborn? What if Mel has been right this whole time? My theory is based solely on the below "Evidence"

Old Nan tells Bran about the White walkers when he is saying he wants to hear a scary story.
"Cold and dead they were, and they hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun"

Later on Jon remembers the exact same line when they find the 2 wights in the snow.

Stannis is often likened to Iron. perhaps Martin is trying to tell us something.

On the other hand, I could be clutching at straws. who knows.

I do think it is worth noting that it is mentioned that the others hate Iron. We all know fire can kill them, but maybe there is something to be said for the Black Brothers battling the others with their cast iron cookwear.
 
Curious - if the Others hate iron so much, then how come their immune to attack from steel swords, and have no problem killing people in steel armour??
 
Curious - if the Others hate iron so much, then how come their immune to attack from steel swords, and have no problem killing people in steel armour??

Steel is different from Iron. Just by a few molecules of carbon that's true, but stainless steel is just a percentage or even less of vanadium. Magical beings seem to have a thing about purity maybe.
 
Cold Iron is a famous folklore motif for dispelling fairies. It suddenly seems strange to be very finicky about purity of the metal. Just thinking aloud. :)
 
Cold Iron is a famous folklore motif for dispelling fairies. It suddenly seems strange to be very finicky about purity of the metal. Just thinking aloud. :)


Maybe that is the reason Martin stopped mentioning the hatred of Iron past book 1. The rest of that qoute though is...

"Cold and dead they were, and they hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun and every creature with hot blood in its veins"
And we know they have no problem killing things, so maybe its not so much that Iron kills them, but that they just hate it. It seems a weird thing to put down as a defining characteristic though.
 

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