A word for Mr

[Toby Frost]

We are in a fantasy world, but one that is at the very earliest late middle ages and at the latest the Elizabethan age or so (yes, this covers a lot). There is gunpowder. Chivalry and knighthood are on the decline, modern society is beginning to start, and there are more and more people around with reasonable amounts of money but no title. Most of these are merchants, although some are mercenaries and similar sorts - basically, self-made men.

So they won't be called "Sir John" (it may be possible to buy a knighthood, but our hero isn't going that way). What would be a formal manner of address for such a person from someone of roughly similar social standing? Is "Mr Smith" either too recent or too recent-sounding?

 

[Venusian Broon]

Master?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_(form_of_address)

 

[Brian G Turner]

What would be a formal manner of address for such a person from someone of roughly similar social standing?

"Master" might be a polite form of address to non-landed or non-military people. However, IMO this would be done for the benefit of the addressee for an audience of social inferiors - ie, two men, alone in a room, of equal social standing, might be expected to address one another simply by name (and perhaps trade). However, in company, their elevated social standing would be underlined by referring to one another as "Master".

IIRC this applies within reason among landed people - titles sets a person above others, therefore equals do not necessarily have to observe the same titles - though titles can be complex and direct equality might be assumed more through familiarity than anything.

Military people - if you have officers - might expect to be known by their rank. However, my recent reading of the Condittierre of mediaeval Italy, and Landsknecht of western Europe, suggests that officer titles among mercenaries were a late mediaeval invention - Condittierre literally means "contractor" while the Landsknecht defined their rank through flamboyant dress - and that landed titles could be awarded (or taken!) through military endeavour.

Hope that helps.

 

[JonH]

Sir was not only used for knights, also priest and parsons. However Master (Mistress) is possible, originally for untitled folk of noble ancestry; or Goodman (Goodwife) for yeomanry.

 

[Toby Frost]

Thanks all. That's pretty much what I've been thinking, but I did wonder if there was a different word (to the modern ear, "master" sounds right only if leading a goblin horde). Apart from overcharging the heroes for weaponry, or obtaining titles by deceit, the merchant class don't seem to do much in fantasy!

 

[JonH]

Apart from overcharging the heroes for weaponry, or obtaining titles by deceit, the merchant class don't seem to do much in fantasy!

To be fair, I can think of a few merchant-adventurer stories. (Which reminds me: I never read past book one of Anteros: The Far Kingdoms. I've been meaning to for years.)

 

[paranoid marvin]

Why not use monsieur? It sounds more respectable and respectful than 'mister'. Doesn't have to be that they speak French or anything, as it's your world to make up the rules.

Also nothing wrong with using 'master' as it would be used by superiors and inferiors alike.

 

[Droflet]

Just a thought, Toby. I toyed with the idea, some time ago, of addressing all members of a community as Burgess, which, I believe means free citizen. Don't know if it would work in your context but there it is. Good luck.

 

[thaddeus6th]

I think a little earlier goodman and goodwife were used (obviously the latter was a married title, not sure about the former). Also 'father' might be used about an old man without religious connotations.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Just a thought, Toby. I toyed with the idea, some time ago, of addressing all members of a community as Burgess, which, I believe means free citizen. Don't know if it would work in your context but there it is. Good luck.

Ooh - that's a point - I seem to recall in one of Ken Follet's books (World Without End, I think) Alderman was used as a title - but I'm not sure whether it was just the business leader of a community, or all the members. I made a note to research this further.

 

[chrispenycate]

This might be religious in origin, but I have met the use of 'friend' as a non-class sensitive (but not totally socially inferior) label. And among the bourgeoisie, who tend to maintain traditions fairly stablely (social pedants) there is a tendency toward functional labels:- Farmer Giles, Trader Zuffrey (but not Shelf-stocker Pashim, Insurance salesman Jones).

For long-term stability (I did not say pig-headed rigidity, as it might have reflected back to me) how do Freemasons address each other? (I know in French, but that's not much help).

 

[The Judge]

Mister was in use earlier than we might think -- from the Online Etymology Dictionary:

mister as a title of courtesy before a man's Christian name, mid-15c., unaccented variant of master. As a form of address, without a name and with a tinge of rudeness, from 1760.

and

Mr. mid-15c., abbreviation of master

But I agree that "Mr Smith" sounds a bit too modern -- the dictionary doesn't mention when it became used with the man's surname.

Members of the same trade or profession -- eg lawyers -- might address each other as Brother, and also in speaking of one another (but as Brother Smith, not Brother Paul, I think). I've never been a freemason (or an unfree one come to that) but I've always imagined that they also use Friend/Brother or somesuch.

Burgess originally meant simply a citizen of the borough, but in time applied only to specific men who acted as the borough's leaders/representatives, eg like the town council. Alderman always denoted the leaders -- literally from Elder -- and again has a kind of specific leadership role within the community. If the merchant isn't on the town council as yet, then Guildman would perhaps work.

In my fantasy I've used Master as honorifics for skilled but not wealthy men when they are spoken of (eg Master Towan) but they wouldn't be addressed as "master" by anyone except their social inferiors. As a term of respectful address for those of rank my Italianates use "Signor" and my Germanic types a made-up "Minherre", the equivalent of Messire. In one of his cities, Adrian Tchaikovsky uses Sieur for men, of whatever rank, and Bella for women, and so perhaps a made-up word might work better within your society.

 

[Jimmo Jam]

Lord? "Lord John shot Lord Smith with his flintlock pistol"

 

[The Judge]

"Lord" as part of a title in an English context indicates a member of the aristocracy -- Lord John being eg the son of a Duke as in Lord Peter Wimsey, Lord Smith a baron eg Lord Bryon -- which is higher up the social scale than even Toby's unwanted Sir John, who would be a knight or baronet.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Point of order, TJ: lord could also be used to refer to a knight or baronet (or a noble) if said individual had a manor upon which peasants worked (quite literally, the lord of the manor, even if they aren't actually a lord).

 

[Venusian Broon]

Another possible title for Lord of the Manor that I think fits Toby's time period was Squire. Although I think reserved for gentry, this I guess was for minor gentry who owned the local land but didn't have actual ranks like knight, baron and higher.

(I originally got it in my head that Esquire might be a possible title that could be used, because up until the early 2000s my bank gave me that title in my bank statements - but I see that it meant someone of a much higher class back then.)

 

[The Judge]

Point of order, TJ: lord could also be used to refer to a knight or baronet (or a noble) if said individual had a manor upon which peasants worked (quite literally, the lord of the manor, even if they aren't actually a lord).

I don't think historically that Lords of the Manor were actually called "Lord Ralph" or "Lord Jones", though, were they? Not formally, certainly, even if some jumped-up jack somewhere insisted on the local proles bowing and scraping, because it's not a title as such, as far as I'm aware, it's more a designation of ownership of land, so they'd be "Ralph, Lord of [the Manor of] Belgrave".

 

[Kylara]

Don't you also have Lairds? Or is that just an old spelling in my middle english books :/
Or maybe scottish...It is definitely in one of the middle english books I am reading at the moment though...hmmmm.

Freemasons call each other Brother by the way.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Don't you also have Lairds? Or is that just an old spelling in my middle english books :/
Or maybe scottish...It is definitely in one of the middle english books I am reading at the moment though...hmmmm.

Freemasons call each other Brother by the way.

If Wikipedia is to be believed (And therefore keep your salt cellars handy of course) then Laird is the Scottish version of Squire. But that kinda sounds correct to me having grown up in the land of lairds, so I'm inclined to believe it. I never heard of a squire north of the border.

 

[BelgarionOz]

Just remember that Master has also been used for a long time to denote a male below the legal age (the equivalent of miss for females). I even once had a library card that had me registered as Master. Granted this was some time ago now but it is something to consider.