Howard or Tolkien, Which of them Had The Greatest Impact On Modern Fantasy ?

[Teresa Edgerton]

If you are going to sell your soul to sell your book, it would be more useful to ape Martin.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Amen to that, Teresa. Frankly, I'd never heard of Howard before this thread (though I am aware of Conan), which indicates his influence may not be as far-reaching as the OP expects. (But I'm not a huge fantasy reader.) but I have heard and read Tolkien, and I don't think, frankly, fantasy would be the genre it is without him. But I'm with Anya, we all have different influences - for fantasy for me it's Gaiman, and the more modern urban style, and the magical realists who influence me - Zafron and Allende. Fantasy is a huge gamut, wider than convention often indicates.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Both are hugely influential, though I can't say I care much for either. Tolkein to me has always been more important than good (though clearly he's very, very important), and I'd probably say the same for REH. But to each their own...

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I would say that The Lord of the Rings -- when it became hugely popular in the sixties, not when it was first published -- created an appetite among readers for fantasy, and convinced publishers that it was a marketable genre.

But, being of an age to remember these things, I recall very well that the immediate result was for publishers (especially Ballentine) to bring out a wide range of fantasy, and among those books a great many classics which were in no way influenced by Tolkien -- in many cases could not have been, considering when they were written -- and there was still a great deal of variety through the seventies and into the early eighties.

But as fantasy role-playing games increased in popularity, so did originality in fantasy decline, though of course it never entirely died. In my opinion, role-playing games are responsible for any stifling, and neither the popularity of Tolkien nor Howard was to blame.

Whereas when one thinks of Howard and the sheer electricity one receives from the characters he brought to life.

We may have different tastes when it comes to characters. I never felt any electricity reading about Conan, unless you count being annoyed. And the women were simply cardboard. I've always liked Solomon Kane, but still no electricity there.

But to be fair, I don't remember reading any of his work outside of two or three Conan stories and all of the Solomon Kane stories. I might find some of his other characters considerably more dynamic and interesting.

 

[Bick]

If you are going to sell your soul to sell your book, it would be more useful to ape Martin.

Possibly true these days, though I didn't mention selling anything - I was thinking more about creating works of genuine literary value.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I have moth-balled the book for now and may self publish it, because the feedback aside from the whole when it was set was really good. It is a story I still have faith in so don't want to change it to fit in.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

though I didn't mention selling anything

My remark wasn't addressed to you. I apologize if I gave that impression. It was Anya who mentioned selling her work.

 

[BAYLOR]

I would say that The Lord of the Rings -- when it became hugely popular in the sixties, not when it was first published -- created an appetite among readers for fantasy, and convinced publishers that it was a marketable genre.

But, being of an age to remember these things, I recall very well that the immediate result was for publishers (especially Ballentine) to bring out a wide range of fantasy, and among those books a great many classics which were in no way influenced by Tolkien -- in many cases could not have been, considering when they were written -- and there was still a great deal of variety through the seventies and into the early eighties.

But as fantasy role-playing games increased in popularity, so did originality in fantasy decline, though of course it never entirely died. In my opinion, role-playing games are responsible for any stifling, and neither the popularity of Tolkien nor Howard was to blame.




We may have different tastes when it comes to characters. I never felt any electricity reading about Conan, unless you count being annoyed. And the women were simply cardboard. I've always liked Solomon Kane, but still no electricity there.

But to be fair, I don't remember reading any of his work outside of two or three Conan stories and all of the Solomon Kane stories. I might find some of his other characters considerably more dynamic and interesting.

Actually I though The Pirate Queen Belit in his story Queen of the Black Coast was quite dynamic. Asl check out his character Red Sonja( Ignore the 1985 film).

 

[Bick]

My remark wasn't addressed to you. I apologize if I gave that impression. It was Anya who mentioned selling her work.

Ah, yes, sorry - now I reread it, that makes sense.

 

[Fried Egg]

We may have different tastes when it comes to characters. I never felt any electricity reading about Conan, unless you count being annoyed. And the women were simply cardboard.

There are a few memorable, powerful female characters in his stories (such as Valeria in "Red Nails"). Certainly he did more for female characterisation than Tolkien did writing decades later.

But as you say, it is largely a matter of taste whether you prefer reading one author or the other and I can't deny Tolkien's impact on modern fantasy has been far greater (for good or for ill).

 

[Brian G Turner]

But as fantasy role-playing games increased in popularity, so did originality in fantasy decline, though of course it never entirely died. In my opinion, role-playing games are responsible for any stifling, and neither the popularity of Tolkien nor Howard was to blame.

That's a really interesting point. It's especially refreshing to see how some mainstream fantasy is really starting to break away from this.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I do confess to noting in one of my early stories that main character tended to go to an inn when he was in ill health

 

[hitmouse]

ok, so lets assume Tolkein wins round one.


Round 2, a 3-way slap-fight, winner to take on JRR:
Who had the greatest influence on modern fantasy: Kenneth Graham, AA Milne, or Lewis Carrol?

I would argue that these are the real antecedants of Neil Gaiman et al.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Hmm - Lewis Carroll?

 

[hitmouse]

Hmm - Lewis Carroll?

Author of an obscure book called Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.

 

[Extollager]

ok, so lets assume Tolkein wins round one.


Round 2, a 3-way slap-fight, winner to take on JRR:
Who had the greatest influence on modern fantasy: Kenneth Graham, AA Milne, or Lewis Carrol?

I would argue that these are the real antecedants of Neil Gaiman et al.

I don't know who, if you mean by "modern fantasy" fantasy since the publication of LotR.

In fact, I simply don't know who. But if you define "modern fantasy" as the fantasy associated with Poe, MacDonald, Morris, Dunsany, Eddison, Howard, Lovecraft, Peake, Tolkien, and beyond, I'd propose S. T. Coleridge as the grand-daddy in some way or other. Just for example, I think you could forget almost all of Dunsany's fantasy if not for "Kubla Khan." It's mostly all there, the dreamer-frame; the vaguely Eastern exoticism; the aura of imminent but shadowy doom; the weird landscapes; the detachment from the prosaic, etc. I'm not saying the Coleridge influence came directly to Dunsany -- it might have come through other writers (too), some of whom might be unknown to us, but, on the other hand, there's basically no way Dunsany and these others wouldn't have known Coleridge's three poetic fantasy masterpieces (also The Rime of the Ancient Mariner and Christabel, which, if you haven't read it, y'all should drop everything to read even though it was not finished).

 

[hitmouse]

I think Coleridge is a good call.
I would even say Shelley's Ozymandias captures much of what most subsequent fantasy writers are trying to achieve, in just one brilliant sonnet:

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

 

[Extollager]

I would even say Shelley's Ozymandias captures 95% of what most subsequent fantasy writers are trying to acheive, in just a few brilliant lines:

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Indeed!

Am I the only one here who first (so far as he or she remembers) encountered these lines in a Marvel comic book?

Avengers #57

 

[Brian G Turner]

I would actually suggest The Iliad as the grand-daddy.

 

[Randy M.]

Thanks for the reminder, Extollager. I also remember "Ozymandias" being used to strong effect at the end of an episode of the TV show Beauty and the Beast (1980s version).

But before "Ozymandias" and "Kubla Khan" there was Vathek by William Beckford, which was inspired by Sir Richard Burton's translation of One Thousand and One Nights. Something about the view of the mystery of the Orient was in the air at that time, influencing a lot of work.


Randy M.