Profanity and Derogatory Terms

[MatterSack]

I'm just wondering what common consensus is regarding characters:

1. Swearing.
   
   
2. Insulting others (particularly via terms considered extremely volatile in reality).

Some explanation:

I have an ancillary character who, at several points throughout my story, deliberately attempts to antagonise others with racial and/or sexual slurs. A family member told me I'd gone way too far, and that what I'd written was incredibly offensive.
Despite that being the character's intention, I'm worried now about crossing an arbitrary line, or that readers will assume I share my character's beliefs.

This same family member (who swears every second word) also told me to cut the swearing out of my dialogue, as he found it disconnecting and awkward to read.

 

[barrett1987]

Post some in the crits for a true opinion If you offended me then you know you've gone too far. As i'm not easy to offend. But until you post we won't ever know,.

 

[JonH]

This is a very subjective thing. I'd say that you have to appear realistic, not be realistic. So if you base it on someone real's speech patterns, you might easily be going over the top. I'll put the odd "Er" in dialogue, but if I wrote all the real ums and ahs and you-know-what-I-means, it would become tedious if not unreadable.

We talk about removing redundancy and meaningless words from writing as a way of improving it, the implications of which you might want to consider when it pertains to swearing.

As for offensive characters, some people will take offence at you for putting it in words. Up to you if you think that's worth it for the story you'll be telling others.

 

[Mirannan]

I tend not to use profanity unless I have a good reason, and even then mild. The reason is at least partly the same as use of profanity in RL; using too much of it destroys its impact. When every third word includes the letter group f**k, the profanity loses its impact.

I admit that the other reason for this is that I was brought up not to swear much.

A good example is my WIP, now up to about 15k words. So far there is one swear word in it, it's in internal dialogue and it's mild anyway - the word usually written as cr@p on forums. And even so, it's completely justified.

As a general point, what is the general attitude to profanity here?

 

[MatterSack]

Well I personally use it as people would in real speech; to emphasise a point or make a character appear tough.

In reality I'm like you Mirannan, in that I swear very little due to my upbringing.

As for offensive characters, some people will take offence at you for putting it in words. Up to you if you think that's worth it for the story you'll be telling others.

I've tried to circumnavigate that by having the character insult everybody (including people like myself) equally.

As long as there are other characters to provide conflicting opinions, it should be alright, shouldn't it?

Post some in the crits for a true opinion If you offended me then you know you've gone too far. As i'm not easy to offend. But until you post we won't ever know,.

To be honest, I'd be more comfortable PMing it (just in case). I'd also have to take a screenshot to get the words past the site censor.

I won't PM it unless you ask.

 

[Mouse]

We've had this conversation on the forum not all that long ago and people ended up going batsh*t crazy and getting offended by ridiculous words that, to me, aren't swear words at all. So you'll never please everyone.

 

[MatterSack]

My brother, at high school, wanted to use the nickname "The Fro" on the back of his jumper (as a reference to his afro). He was told it was racist.

So yeah, I'm all too aware that these overly-sensitive types exist.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think use it less than the person would in real life because the words quickly lose their impact if over used and once or twice is often enough for emphasis. I write (sometimes) in the Ulster lingo which is scattered with profanities but use less in the writing of it since one of my regular critters found it just a little too much. So use it, sure, but maybe cut it back a little for effect.

You can stick it on crits if it's ***** out, btw.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

Yeah, this ain't the place for honest opinion about swearing. There's a lot of hyper-sensitive types who blush if you say the word tit. *gasp*

Yet there seems to be no real trouble with all kinds of hyper-violent death, murder, torture, or rape.

Go figure.

I would say, don't use standard racial epithets. Just don't. Have your characters swear as much as you want, but avoid the slurs. Swearing is subjective and might cost you some readers. Racial stuff is much less subjective, more likely to offend, and will cost you some readers... or earn you a few you really don't want.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Yeah, this ain't the place for honest opinion about swearing. There's a lot of hyper-sensitive types who blush if you say the word tit. *gasp*

Yet there seems to be no real trouble with all kinds of hyper-violent death, murder, torture, or rape.

No, I think it's that the site is marketed as family-friendly, that's all. There are many others that aren't. And the same goes for graphic torture, murder or rape scenes here, as well - very few have ever been out up that I can recall.

 

[Mouse]

Yet there seems to be no real trouble with all kinds of hyper-violent death, murder, torture, or rape.

Go figure.

Yep! That just amuses me though, I think it's kinda sweet in a way. No sex or swearing but murder and rape are fine!

Re the slurs - definitely don't go overboard on those, but if your character will say it then have them say it. In the novel I have coming out (November the 5th from Torquere ) I have a character call one of the others a gypsy. This other character is a gypsy, but he corrects the slur and says he doesn't like it and that he prefers the term traveller. I was told to take out all gypsy references by an editor, so that was my compromise.

So, if you get it picked up, your editor/agent might get you to change it anyway.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Hard to say without reading what you wrote.

Personally, I tend to go light on swearing (****ard and sh** [probably don't need to asterisk but playing it safe] rather than f- and c-words). I think it's too easy to overuse swear words, and it can often be more incisive to avoid them and write more original dialogue.

On racism, my writing's always set in a fantasyland, so it's not quite the same bag of monkeys. I was unsure what to do (there are three main human races who are different enough to tell apart by sight) and ended up making casual racism almost omnipresent. So, one race gets mocked for being heathen and barbarian, another for being effeminate, and a third for being bloodthirsty. It's more taking the piss than serious aggression.

You will offend somebody, with something or other. It's a judgement call as to how precisely you want to write things.

 

[VALIS13]

Make up some new swear words.

It depends on the setting. In the future there may be new swear words, so you could make these up (e.g. 'frack' in Battlestar Galactica).

Remember Porridge starring Ronnie Barker? They made up a swear word ('naff') so characters could express profanity on a family show.

And if you don't like my suggestion, you can flanging konk off you mongy funger.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Scott Lynch uses a lot of swearing in his fantasy series, but some readers are put off by that.

Characters can be offensive, you just need to take care that their use can be justified. Few might expect a drill sergeant to be a sympathetic character, but IMO any potential offence needs to be balanced with strong protagonist development.

 

[alchemist]

Swear words don't bother me in the slightest, but as everyone says, use them wisely so they have more power. Bear in mind that some people will be more bothered by the use of "Jesus" than f***.

And some people are unable to see something in context and will get upset over anything. IRL, bad people use derogatory terms for others. In my opinion, not showing this, e.g. not showing racists using racist terms, is treating your readers like children.

My brother, at high school, wanted to use the nickname "The Fro" on the back of his jumper (as a reference to his afro). He was told it was racist.

Now that's just silly. It's a hairstyle.

On racism, my writing's always set in a fantasyland, so it's not quite the same bag of monkeys. I was unsure what to do (there are three main human races who are different enough to tell apart by sight) and ended up making casual racism almost omnipresent. So, one race gets mocked for being heathen and barbarian, another for being effeminate, and a third for being bloodthirsty. It's more taking the piss than serious aggression.

*points*

RACIST!!!

 

[MatterSack]

Funny you should say that Brian; the character is an Army instructor. Kind of a (way toned-down) tribute to Gunnery Sergeant Hartman from Full Metal Jacket.

I would say, don't use standard racial epithets. Just don't.

This character has one redeeming feature: he isn't selectively bigoted. He insults everyone. Asians, Africans, Europeans, Middle-Easterners, the LGBT and the religious, all in one paragraph. He does for with the express purpose of provoking his recruits.

And some people are unable to see something in context and will get upset over anything. IRL, bad people use derogatory terms for others. In my opinion, not showing this, e.g. not showing racists using racist terms, is treating your readers like children.

This is what I initially thought too.

 

[alchemist]

This is what I initially thought too.

And as long as you don't give the impression their racism/bigotry is okay, MOST readers will understand. But you won't please everybody.

 

[JonH]

I think the fact that it's the army is more of a saving grace than the pan-directional spread. Swearing is expected in the army and there aren't too many children or maiden aunts hanging about.

 

[Laeraneth]

You're guaranteed to offend someone no matter what you do.
As others have said, some dislike even the most mild of cursing ("Jesus christ!" already being mentioned, would potentially upset some people as much as "F***ing b*******" might to someone else). Some will be upset at the use of a word like "damn". Without even a minor way to express frustration of a character or the urgency and panic of a situation, your characters might come across flat and lacking realism.
Also, some people will take offence at something not because they are offended, but because they think that what they've seen is offensive to someone else... in that case, you really have no hope to avoid offending someone!

On the other hand, some characters should be portrayed as bigoted, racist, irredeemable £*$&'s (insert swear word of choice there ) because that's exactly what some people are really like.

It doesn't just apply to real world situations either. To take a classic, Lord of the Rings wouldn't be Lord of the Rings if some of the Elves weren't haughty and superior to a fault, blatantly derogatory towards the lesser races, and convinced of their own superiority.
That's not to say they're ALL like that, the story makes the point that they're wrong (the whole thing is about the little people making big differences after all) but the fact is there, and it should be otherwise a large part of the flavour of the world and the background of the story is lost.

A real world situation is the same. If you're writing a story about gang-land antics in London (for a random example, I promise I've got nothing against London ) there should be some appalling racist and homophobic antagonists in there, because we all know they exist... you just have to read the news for a couple of weeks to see that for a fact.

It might well upset some readers to see racist slurs or derogatory terms, but that's kind of the whole point... it's meant to make them feel uncomfortable, and unless you're somehow glamorising it by having your hero go around spitting at everyone who isn't in his group (be it ethnic, or social, or whatever) then I personally would say, it should be fine. You're not expressing a view, a treatise on racism or a balanced view of gender politics, you're telling a story. If that story includes a prejudiced and bigoted person, they should be just that, otherwise, what's the point?

 

[Mirannan]

Yeah, this ain't the place for honest opinion about swearing. There's a lot of hyper-sensitive types who blush if you say the word tit. *gasp*

They must have trouble with birdwatching sites, then.

(I once had fun with that on another forum. Started a thread with the title "pictures of pairs of great tits" and waited for the flames. )