Future Warfare

[Joshua Jones]

Improbable, certainly. I should mention that I pilot the Heart of Gold.

An improbability drive? No... it can...

Darn it. I need to rethink the whole squid thing now...

 

[Onyx]

Released...

K2

Like how a cannon "releases" the shell after building up velocity? A distinction without a difference.

My friend, I think you are still missing what I am getting at. Reflecting a laser is pretty easy, but there is a possibility that it will then go and hit something else. And, all that energy is simply wasted. So, what I am suggesting is not reflection, and therefore, not using a mirror. Rather, I am interested in the possibilities of absorbing the energy from a laser, possibly to give your own weapons a boost. Now, one could just coat their ship in solar panels and call it armor, but if we are going for realism, the laser would just burn through the panels. If, however, the light is no longer in beam form, but spread out over a significantly larger area, the energy could be absorbed. And, if the material used is sufficiently durable to heat, it won't necessarily need to be replaced. Hence why I suggested a faceted crystal, which can have all of these properties. The facets allow for light distribution, the transparency will reduce heat transfer, and the strength of the structure will allow it to function when impacted with other materials.

So, it isn't about making a crystal spaceship, but about one which can absorb laser strikes. An added benefit is that it could hypothetically recharge its capacitors from the local star(s), and if placed sufficiently close to a star, could have nearly unlimited energy, as the armor's light diffusion properties would not reduce the ability to absorb regular light.

If you want to channel light, you can't use little grains of diamond. That is guaranteed to turn the maximum amount of energy into destructive heat for a given transparent substance.

If you are talking about one big sheet of diamond, that isn't naturally faceted. Diamonds, like glass or ice, have facets because we carve them into the clear material.

I think you have an idea that diamond has special properties. Aside from being hard, it really doesn't. It's just another form of carbon. It isn't a very good conductor of heat, it doesn't have a very high working temperature before it burns or sublimes, its hardness means it is prone to cracking if locally overheated or impacted compared to glass. The only real industrial use of diamond is for cutting tools, not optics or heat coatings.

If you are into science and relating realistic sounding SF, please do some research on materials, because the diamond thing is going to sound silly to a lot of readers.

There are lots of ways of converting light energy to electricity, like using it to heat a jacket of water or diffraction to distribute a small point over a larger solar array. But if your enemy thinks you've got that stuff down, why are they firing a laser at you? And how much mass did you spend trying to convert one tiny laser impact into a few watts of extra energy? Why would any reasonable space ship need such a small amount of energy?

If it is combat, wouldn't the most effective and efficient way of reusing laser energy be from simply reflecting it back at the attacker?

 

[-K2-]

*chuckles and smiles*

K2

 

[Joshua Jones]

Like how a cannon "releases" the shell after building up velocity? A distinction without a difference.



If you want to channel light, you can't use little grains of diamond. That is guaranteed to turn the maximum amount of energy into destructive heat for a given transparent substance.

If you are talking about one big sheet of diamond, that isn't naturally faceted. Diamonds, like glass or ice, have facets because we carve them into the clear material.

I think you have an idea that diamond has special properties. Aside from being hard, it really doesn't. It's just another form of carbon. It isn't a very good conductor of heat, it doesn't have a very high working temperature before it burns or sublimes, its hardness means it is prone to cracking if locally overheated or impacted compared to glass. The only real industrial use of diamond is for cutting tools, not optics or heat coatings.

If you are into science and relating realistic sounding SF, please do some research on materials, because the diamond thing is going to sound silly to a lot of readers.

There are lots of ways of converting light energy to electricity, like using it to heat a jacket of water or diffraction to distribute a small point over a larger solar array. But if your enemy thinks you've got that stuff down, why are they firing a laser at you? And how much mass did you spend trying to convert one tiny laser impact into a few watts of extra energy? Why would any reasonable space ship need such a small amount of energy?

If it is combat, wouldn't the most effective and efficient way of reusing laser energy be from simply reflecting it back at the attacker?

And, if you notice, I stopped mentioning diamonds in favor of "clear crystal", because you are right that there are materials which will hold up much better to heat. The material is irrelevant to me; what is significant is the theory of dispersing a laser beam over a wide area, so it can be safely absorbed.

I am also not sure where the idea of the laser being tiny came from... any ship-ship laser is going to be pretty powerful if used as an offensive weapon. The battleship level ones I have in my WiP have dedicated fusion reactors. And, I am not sure where diamond grains came from either. I had in mind more like 2 carat crystals, cut into cubic patterns with diagonal edges, stacked about 6" deep.

And yes, I would suspect that the enemy would stop using lasers... which is the entire point of this in the long term. If I am right that lasers are more effective at longer ranges than slugs, this would be a significant advantage and incentive to do something like this. Guaranteed first strike and ongoing strikes while they come into range is a pretty sizable advantage. Of course, this advantage is dependent on the enemy not learning how this tech works and replicating it...

Lastly, the amount of energy drawn is based on how efficient your absorbing mechanisms are. High levels of efficiency could harvest quite a bit of energy, which can be used in nearly any way desired.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I'm not sure why lasers would be used - aside from the ease by which they can be reflected, there's also the problem that even the best lasers will gradually disperse over distance, which increases their surface areas and reduces the energy they deliver. On Earth it's not usually a problem, but if we're talking about the larger distances of open space it becomes yet another drawback.

I would have thought any beam weapon would have to use mass, such as charged particles, to be the most effective - hence why plasma weapons and ion cannons are a staple of modern sci-fi.

 

[Onyx]

And, if you notice, I stopped mentioning diamonds in favor of "clear crystal", because you are right that there are materials which will hold up much better to heat. The material is irrelevant to me; what is significant is the theory of dispersing a laser beam over a wide area, so it can be safely absorbed.

I am also not sure where the idea of the laser being tiny came from... any ship-ship laser is going to be pretty powerful if used as an offensive weapon. The battleship level ones I have in my WiP have dedicated fusion reactors. And, I am not sure where diamond grains came from either. I had in mind more like 2 carat crystals, cut into cubic patterns with diagonal edges, stacked about 6" deep.

And yes, I would suspect that the enemy would stop using lasers... which is the entire point of this in the long term. If I am right that lasers are more effective at longer ranges than slugs, this would be a significant advantage and incentive to do something like this. Guaranteed first strike and ongoing strikes while they come into range is a pretty sizable advantage. Of course, this advantage is dependent on the enemy not learning how this tech works and replicating it...

Lastly, the amount of energy drawn is based on how efficient your absorbing mechanisms are. High levels of efficiency could harvest quite a bit of energy, which can be used in nearly any way desired.

As a general principle, the more complex the mechanism for converting energy, the less efficiently it will do it and the more loss you have to heat, friction, wear, etc.

And yes, the output of any weapon is relatively tiny compared to the total energy you have available to make the ship go. If you have the ability to fire a laser of amazing destructive power, no redistribution system is going to survive being hit by it. All those little losses in efficiency would very suddenly add up to a complete meltdown followed immediately after by the destruction of their infrastructure. Either a laser is a pinpoint weapon of limited output that can be parried, or it is a devastating super weapon with no defense.

Feel free to do the math - laser output is in watts. Figure out how much steel hull you want to vaporize per millisecond, figure out how much delta V your ship's engines must put out to travel the way you want it to, and decide if the laser you catch and are able to convert amounts to an appreciable fraction of your engine output.

 

[Joshua Jones]

I'm not sure why lasers would be used - aside from the ease by which they can be reflected, there's also the problem that even the best lasers will gradually disperse over distance, which increases their surface areas and reduces the energy they deliver. On Earth it's not usually a problem, but if we're talking about the larger distances of open space it becomes yet another drawback.

I would have thought any beam weapon would have to use mass, such as charged particles, to be the most effective - hence why plasma weapons and ion cannons are a staple of modern sci-fi.

That is a good point, but I wonder how much of that can be reduced with advances in manufacturing precision? I don't think we could ever get the photons perfectly parallel, but it may be possible to make the effect small enough that laser weapons may be effective out to a few light seconds. Maybe I will have a conversation with my physics source and find out what is possible...

Does anyone have a good theory about how to keep plasma or ions together for any useful distance? The electromagnetic force is stronger than gravity, so there must be another force holding it together...

As a general principle, the more complex the mechanism for converting energy, the less efficiently it will do it and the more loss you have to heat, friction, wear, etc.

And yes, the output of any weapon is relatively tiny compared to the total energy you have available to make the ship go. If you have the ability to fire a laser of amazing destructive power, no redistribution system is going to survive being hit by it. All those little losses in efficiency would very suddenly add up to a complete meltdown followed immediately after by the destruction of their infrastructure. Either a laser is a pinpoint weapon of limited output that can be parried, or it is a devastating super weapon with no defense.

Feel free to do the math - laser output is in watts. Figure out how much steel hull you want to vaporize per millisecond, figure out how much delta V your ship's engines must put out to travel the way you want it to, and decide if the laser you catch and are able to convert amounts to an appreciable fraction of your engine output.

Fair point; it may be significantly smaller than the energy output of the engines. That said, the overwhelming majority of an engine's energy output, especially in this setting, is lost in thrust, so that equation is probably not the best. And, being ships are not likely to be burning thrust on a regular basis, a ship will probably have a reactor of some form for its internal power, and engine outputs may either be ignored or stored. And, that assumes a ship isn't using something like an ion or plasma drive, which will be consuming electrical energy, rather than adding it.

All that said, one doesn't need to adopt my idea of absorbing laser shots rather than deflecting them. I am still going to work on it to see if it can be made viable and I can identify specific materials which could be used for this application. And, it could be that lasers can never be focused enough to be functional as ship-ship weapons. What is great about speculative fiction is that we can speculate on these matters, and ultimately, we don't need to come to an agreement.

 

[Onyx]

And, it could be that lasers can never be focused enough to be functional as ship-ship weapons. What is great about speculative fiction is that we can speculate on these matters, and ultimately, we don't need to come to an agreement.

We're having an enjoyable conversation, and I also think it is important you work these things out for yourself, and a little debate doesn't hurt that process. I was considering listing various authors that have addressed this issue in the past, but I think it is better to understand on your own than simply go off some authority's say so.

 

[Vertigo]

Like how a cannon "releases" the shell after building up velocity? A distinction without a difference.



If you want to channel light, you can't use little grains of diamond. That is guaranteed to turn the maximum amount of energy into destructive heat for a given transparent substance.

If you are talking about one big sheet of diamond, that isn't naturally faceted. Diamonds, like glass or ice, have facets because we carve them into the clear material.

I think you have an idea that diamond has special properties. Aside from being hard, it really doesn't. It's just another form of carbon. It isn't a very good conductor of heat, it doesn't have a very high working temperature before it burns or sublimes, its hardness means it is prone to cracking if locally overheated or impacted compared to glass. The only real industrial use of diamond is for cutting tools, not optics or heat coatings.

If you are into science and relating realistic sounding SF, please do some research on materials, because the diamond thing is going to sound silly to a lot of readers.

There are lots of ways of converting light energy to electricity, like using it to heat a jacket of water or diffraction to distribute a small point over a larger solar array. But if your enemy thinks you've got that stuff down, why are they firing a laser at you? And how much mass did you spend trying to convert one tiny laser impact into a few watts of extra energy? Why would any reasonable space ship need such a small amount of energy?

If it is combat, wouldn't the most effective and efficient way of reusing laser energy be from simply reflecting it back at the attacker?

A little aside, though not directly relevant to the conversation, there is another commercial use of diamond which might just, with manufactured diamonds, become their major commercial use and that is diamond semiconductors.

 

[Joshua Jones]

We're having an enjoyable conversation, and I also think it is important you work these things out for yourself, and a little debate doesn't hurt that process. I was considering listing various authors that have addressed this issue in the past, but I think it is better to understand on your own than simply go off some authority's say so.

It has been enjoyable, and debate is certainly a valuable tool for improving. To be honest, had you listed aithors, I probably wouldn't take their word for it. I may take a look at what they said so that I can identify primary sources, then go to them, find equations, and work out the details myself. I found that helps me make realistic tech far better than taking someone else's word for something.

Thanks again for the enjoyable debate!

 

[psikeyhackr]

On a website called Quora someone recently asked about any science fiction novels with drone warfare.

The Two Faces of Tomorrow by James P Hogan

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The Two Faces Of Tomorrow by James P. Hogan - Baen Books

War between humans and AI on a huge space station.