Quick question about fire

[Mouse]

I've got a bunch of evil men firing flaming arrows into a forest at my heroes in the night. They run but the forest is aflame.

There is a settlement in the forest, but one of the characters says it'll be fine as the wind's blowing the fire away from the village (that's ok, right?)

The same character also says the fire will burn out once it reaches the end of the forest. Is that true? At the edge of the forest there's meadowland and, my country's based on the UK so it's not all dry and massively flammable like elsewhere in the world (plus it's been raining in the story previously) so... will it burn out? Or spread?

Ta!

 

[TheDustyZebra]

Fire can definitely be blown in a particular direction by the wind, but it can also turn back if the wind changes -- and a big enough fire can create its own winds and alter the weather pattern in the area.

I'd say you could make a good claim for whatever you need to happen -- fire can be very fickle, and skip over a house completely for no apparent reason, just like a tornado can. It could be that the winds changed at the right moment, or that the village had a big enough firebreak between them and the forest.

I don't know how your UK forests and meadowlands are; if it's not dry grass, you might be all right, but how about peat? Is there undergrowth that could smolder for days? That rain before the fire might work just fine. Again, you could probably make the case whichever way you wish.

 

[HareBrain]

I'm a bit dubious about a temperate forest going up because of flaming arrows, to be honest. Woodlands are quite damp anyway, you say it's been raining recently, and from my experience of trying to burn stuff during conservation work, I think the arrow would burn out before the tree caught. Wood needs to be fully dry before it will catch light, and if it's damp, the fire has to be strong and long-lasting enough to dry it out first.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Hi Mouse,


A couple of points.


If this is based in the UK I'd say you would have trouble calling anything a true forest.


I can't recall an event like the one your describing happening in the UK (although my memory is dimming with age). Certainly not big enough to make the international news.


The pine 'forests' we have usually have fire breaks which I assume are big enough to work, although they do seem ridiculously narrow.


From what I've seen, Sherwood Forest is a joke from the point of wildfire.


The new forests seems to made up of bramble and broom from what I've seen passing through and as HareBrain says, given or climate, would be unlikely to 'get going'.


Way back in '76 there were some warnings about the possibility of fires, but from what I remember none started (again the age thing might be kicking in here).


I do recall some moorland fires in the peak district some years ago.


However, I've just looked up forest fires UK :-

From the BBC :-

In Mytholmroyd, West Yorkshire, fire crews have been tackling a moor fire which started on Tuesday and burned across 1.5 sq kms of land. A helicopter helped douse the flames with water from a reservoir and crews used small jets, back packs and beaters to put the fire out, which is now smouldering.

Nearby, in Wainstalls, West Yorkshire, firefighters have had to dig into the ground before putting water on the fire as it is deep-seated in peat. The fire, which started on Monday and spread over around 1sq km, is said to be under control.

In the south, there have been fires in Dorset. One heath fire in Wareham Forest on Tuesday night is believed to be malicious, according to the fire service. Fire crews are still at the scene of another, reported on Wednesday afternoon at Canford Heath, near Poole. Its cause is unknown.

In south Wales, hundreds of acres of the Brecon Beacons National Park have been destroyed. Head warden Judith Harvey said there had been many fires in the past three weeks but the latest were burning away some of the best habitat, including heather moorland, bilberry and crowberry. "It's a really devastating scene," she said.

In Lancashire, firefighters are now into their sixth day spent trying to put out fires which have destroyed moorland and woodland near Belmont. Many worked through the night as colleagues took on another moor fire near Ormskirk. Experts have been assessing the environmental impact and fear some areas could take decades to recover.

The unusually warm weather has also affected parts of Scotland. The royal family's Balmoral Estate, where the Queen traditionally spends her summer break, was not immune as fire took hold across a large area of heather and gorse. Highlands and Islands Fire and Rescue Service said there was "a continuing severe risk of further fires occurring" as they turned their attention to fires in Inverkirkaig and Lochailort.

BBC News - Forest fires continue to burn across UK

But I don't think 1.5 skm rates as a 'national disaster'


I was in Portugal when they were experiencing a lot of hot weather fires, and it was quite frightening to watch even from across a very large valley and lake, but again the area was relatively small < 4 sq. miles say.


Interestingly some were started by lightning strikes just before it rained although the authorities were claiming it was down to 'activists'. We actually saw one start though so, unless the activist lived "^up there", I think their claims were rubbish.


Hope I helped


TEiN

 

[JonH]

Like Hare, I'm doubtful of the forest going up in the first place following recent rain.

Both forest and grass fires occur during the same conditions, so in general the fire wouldn't stop when it reached meadowland. However, the fire would stop if it reached an area denuded of fuel, so if the meadow had been overgrazed it might form a break. A wide road, eg a motorway, or a lake would stop it too.

 

[Dave]

I can't recall an event like the one your describing happening in the UK...

I'm assuming this is Fantasy TEIN. I can't recall 'a bunch of evil men firing flaming arrows into a forest' either

Before we cut all the trees down to build ships and houses the UK did have dense Oak and Beech forests. After prolonged dry spells the problem of fire in forests is a serious risk, but it is a more common problem on Heather moorlands.

Can I just ask about the whole 'flaming arrows' business anyway? Did anyone ever use them, or is it just a construct of Hollywood Robin Hood movies? If they did, wouldn't the whole point be to set fire to stuff (more likely inside a town wall or a castle bailey)? I can't see any point at firing flaming arrows at people, especially considering that they would be difficult to handle without also setting fire to the archer himself.

 

[Mouse]

Thanks, gang!

Yep, it's fantasy and other-world fantasy, not our world. It's based on the UK not actually in the UK and I've got made up species of deer and butterflies at the mo, so I can always make up a species of flammable tree.

The men with the arrows aren't really men, they're kinda like zombies but not actually dead (they're made from shadows so not technically alive either).

The whole fire thing is because I have a character who's terrified of fire and has half his face burnt (and, really annoyingly, I did all this before GOT and I'll probably get accused of copying).

 

[Abernovo]

Mouse, they could always cut down the edge of the pasture, to creat a break. Grass does burn, but if it's been raining (and it's a very British landscape) then the chances are the fire will die out.

Of course, it might depend upon the type of tree. Conifers might be slightly more flammable, due to their viscous, high energy sap. Still not necessarily a done deal in a Northern European-type temperate forest, though.

On the other hand, have you considered the type of soil? Ever seen a peat fire started by a simple campfire, or even a lightning strike? If the arrows (pitch-soaked trebuchet/onager projectiles might work even better) started a peat fire, that can burn for ages. That might be another story/village in your story.

End of the day, it's your world - you control the weather/wind etc.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Just a note on heather: fire can actually go underground and suddenly burst onto the surface behind fire-fighters. At least, that's what I learnt at school.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Fire arrows are to fire over the wall (wooden poles or stone) into the thatched roofs. Good barley thatch lasts nearly 100 years. Modern barley is too short stalk so any thatch you see today is usually shorter life reed based. They cut reeds here annually from the edge of a few rivers for thatch.

If it had been a prolonged dry period in late summer/autumn or in winter before spring (no sap rising) then a good heavy rain will ensure the meadow won't burn but the trees might, but only if scrub and brush under them (kept dry by leaves on trees so only late summer/early autumn) catches fire. Usually it's the scrub/brush that burns easily to start with. That's why moorland in dry weather in late summer is more vulnerable as the gorse (furze) and to a lesser extent brambles and bracken burn easily then.

A heavy shower after prolonged dry period I think will only much affect the ease of meadow and thatch burning.

A 'fire arrow' unless a larger projectile fired by a machine (the Romans could fling serous "fence post" type projectiles through a stone wall) is pretty poor range, inaccurate and won't much hurt anyone. Ordinary arrows and bolts depend on size of bow. A longbow can kill at over 1km and has nearly as much power as a rifle. But hardly anyone is strong enough to work one. A cross bow that can be quickly cranked and suitable for horse back might be good for 10m. A larger one taking much longer to re-load (double hand cranked) maybe as good as average bow, but about 10th of the firing rate. Less strength needed. There are also crossbows re-cocked by foot, not so powerful, need to be on firm ground behind breast work as you are standing.

Almost all decent range or power of bow need the Archer to stand still for a moment to fire.

I've not set fire to thatch. Or actually used 'fire arrows'. But I have had professional military instruction and practice with rifles, machine guns and Archery. At the beginning of training even just pulling the bow was nearly impossible! I can now though hit the target. A rifle is a totally different skill. Muskets are much inferior to Bow & arrow but not much slower than decent crossbow (more powerful than many) but nearly anyone can use one. Similarly Crossbow (except perhaps on horseback) is inferior to a decent bow, but nearly anyone can use them. Archery is quite hard requiring skill and strength. Crossbow bolts (quarrels) can be made much faster than decent arrows and musket shot faster still.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Eucalyptus can go Woof!

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Thanks, gang!

Yep, it's fantasy and other-world fantasy, not our world. It's based on the UK not actually in the UK and I've got made up species of deer and butterflies at the mo, so I can always make up a species of flammable tree.

The men with the arrows aren't really men, they're kinda like zombies but not actually dead (they're made from shadows so not technically alive either).

The whole fire thing is because I have a character who's terrified of fire and has half his face burnt (and, really annoyingly, I did all this before GOT and I'll probably get accused of copying).

Mouse,


Seems a bit extreme, setting fire to half the continent just to show someone is frightened of fire. Surely a simple camp fire would work just as well - and more likely to happen.


Dave:

 

[Mouse]

So... if it's a particularly oily/sappy tree then it'll burn? So if I mention something about the fire catching the sap, that works?

 

[JonH]

So... if it's a particularly oily/sappy tree then it'll burn? So if I mention something about the fire catching the sap, that works?

There's a difference between a forest first catching alight and it staying alight. To catch fire initially, you need tinder. In terms of forest fires that's dead twigs and vegetation on the forest floor, which should catch easily from a burning arrow. Once a fire is big enough and hot enough it will be able to set fire to resinous conifers. Once something like that catches, the whole fire becomes very hard to put out. On moorland, once peat catches fire, you have the same trouble, but it's dead bracken that will go up first.

Could a resinous tree catch fire just from a burning arrow? Possibly, but I doubt it. It would depend on how long and how hot the arrow burned. The bark of resinous trees tends to be non-flammable. Younger trees have thinner bark and less protection, so if any were to catch directly it would be a very small tree.

 

[Null_Zone]

Can I just ask about the whole 'flaming arrows' business anyway? Did anyone ever use them, or is it just a construct of Hollywood Robin Hood movies? If they did, wouldn't the whole point be to set fire to stuff (more likely inside a town wall or a castle bailey)? I can't see any point at firing flaming arrows at people, especially considering that they would be difficult to handle without also setting fire to the archer himself.

The last half way serious thing I read about flaming arrows, about fifteen years ago, had there being some circumstantial evidence for them being used. But the aerodynamics would make it almost impossible to hit anything unless you were going for the old area denial approach to archery. Which defeats the point of starting a fire if you have that many archers.

The old clay pot filled with oil was a much easier solution.

 

[JoanDrake]

Like you said, it's your fantasy. Make up a type of easily inflammable tree and/or underbrush and/or both and mention it somewhere in passing so the detail picking readers won't have an inconsistency to jump on.

("Try to find some tindertree wood, Elfnuts, we haven't got all day to start this fire." )

Even in the real world fire can be strange. You can have cases where the parents are out burning off whole fields with no problem and then their kid sets the house ablaze playing with matches

 

[TheDustyZebra]

Lots of fascinating information here -- not counting mine. I live in burn country, USA, and we have forest fires every year here. Of course, I hadn't realized how very different your forests are!

 

[Spiegal]

You wouldn't need to make up a flammable tree as one already exists! Pine forests in UK summertime could be a more than plausible explanation. I remember when I was a kid me and a mate used to sit in the woods making fires and living in our own fantasy world. We once made a fire too high and it started to lick the lower boughs of a pine tree.

Luckily it was on the edge of the pine wood as within 30 seconds of the flames touching the branches half the tree was ablaze. and the entire thing was on fire within a few minutes. If it had been in the forest then I have no doubt the whole thing would've burnt down.

Pine burns unbelievably quickly and more intense than any kind of tree you are likely to find in the UK (or fantasy land similar to it) due to the oily leaves and sap. It would only take a match to get it going!

 

[Mouse]

Cheers again, gang!

After a bit of google-fu, I discovered that (pretty much as Spiegal says above) pine needles are good tinder even when wet. So I've just added in a bit about fire catching the needles.

 

[HareBrain]

Hooray for fantasy realisticness!