Lieutenant Hornblower by C S Forester

[Vertigo]

This is the second chronological book in the Hornblower series (and my third).

Another rip-roaring Napoleonic Hornblower adventure, but slightly unusual this time in that it is not written from Hornblower’s point of view. This felt a little odd in that he is still definitely the main protagonist.

The story is excellent as always and moves along at a great pace throughout, which is a little surprising since the main action is pretty much all done two thirds of the way through and yet the remaining story which, on the surface would look to be a little dull, still kept me turning the pages until four thirty in the morning! So another example of Forester’s fine writing and yet….

I had one very big complaint with this book. Hornblower is presented throughout as being, quite simply, perfect. Maybe this is why it is not written from his point of view; it would have been far too embarrassing to read. This unrealistic perfection is made worse when contrasted with the character from whose point of view the book is written, another lieutenant senior to Hornblower. This character, Lieutenant Bush, is almost presented as a complete idiot. I became sick of how many times Bush would have all sorts of philosophical thoughts followed by some variation of not ‘being able to express it in words.’ I could spot these disclaimers coming and was already cringing before each one arrived. How he came to be a lieutenant in the first place escapes me; his failing were constantly being listed. I can’t recall them all but here’s a few: he couldn’t do the maths necessary for navigation, he couldn’t think tactically or diplomatically, he was intolerant, he didn’t care about the fate of the lower ranks, ‘he knew himself to be lacking in chicane and dissimulation.’ In fact he was rather too obviously everything that Hornblower was not and by the end of the book this man, who was senior to Hornblower in both rank and age, is something of a fawning sycophant. I found this very annoying (although possibly no more so than Hornblower’s continuous self-doubt in the previous volume) and it certainly detracted from my pleasure in the book.

Despite these issues this was still an excellent read; it’s not every book that will keep me reading until four thirty in the morning! But they do still pull it down from a solid four stars to three and a half.

 

[JoanDrake]

This is the second chronological book in the Hornblower series (and my third).

Another rip-roaring Napoleonic Hornblower adventure, but slightly unusual this time in that it is not written from Hornblower’s point of view. This felt a little odd in that he is still definitely the main protagonist.

The story is excellent as always and moves along at a great pace throughout, which is a little surprising since the main action is pretty much all done two thirds of the way through and yet the remaining story which, on the surface would look to be a little dull, still kept me turning the pages until four thirty in the morning! So another example of Forester’s fine writing and yet….

I had one very big complaint with this book. Hornblower is presented throughout as being, quite simply, perfect. Maybe this is why it is not written from his point of view; it would have been far too embarrassing to read. This unrealistic perfection is made worse when contrasted with the character from whose point of view the book is written, another lieutenant senior to Hornblower. This character, Lieutenant Bush, is almost presented as a complete idiot. I became sick of how many times Bush would have all sorts of philosophical thoughts followed by some variation of not ‘being able to express it in words.’ I could spot these disclaimers coming and was already cringing before each one arrived. How he came to be a lieutenant in the first place escapes me; his failing were constantly being listed. I can’t recall them all but here’s a few: he couldn’t do the maths necessary for navigation, he couldn’t think tactically or diplomatically, he was intolerant, he didn’t care about the fate of the lower ranks, ‘he knew himself to be lacking in chicane and dissimulation.’ In fact he was rather too obviously everything that Hornblower was not and by the end of the book this man, who was senior to Hornblower in both rank and age, is something of a fawning sycophant. I found this very annoying (although possibly no more so than Hornblower’s continuous self-doubt in the previous volume) and it certainly detracted from my pleasure in the book.

Despite these issues this was still an excellent read; it’s not every book that will keep me reading until four thirty in the morning! But they do still pull it down from a solid four stars to three and a half.

Was this guy actually a complete numbskull, or did he just recognize Hornblower's talent and contrast it to his own?



My understanding has always been that the British Navy of Hornblower's time was rather routinely staffed largely by incompetents, since rank was routinely bought and sold but only if you were of the upper classes to begin with. The unrealistic thing is that the narrator would recognize his own faults. There were, however, some who did and we owe a lot of our view of the Navy of that day to their honesty, so this may be a more realistic view than you think.


I'm not trying to insult the British Navy. All navies were like that then, even the American to my knowledge. Hell, everything was, but more so in the military.

 

[The Judge]

My understanding has always been that the British Navy of Hornblower's time was rather routinely staffed largely by incompetents, since rank was routinely bought and sold but only if you were of the upper classes to begin with.

I really don't think that's the case, not with the navy by the 1800s. Certainly there were still idiots around who should never have been given a command, but the navy couldn't have had the successes it did if it was "staffed largely by incompetents"! Increasingly officers were men who had received good training, often going to sea at the age of 12 or 13, being taught navigation etc on board ship, and having to achieve good results to progress. Admittedly influence and who-you-knew still played a good part in promotion, but it wasn't as in the army where commissions were actually paid for.

As to upper classes, it rather depends on how you define "upper". Nelson's father was a clergyman, as was Hood's, and I think Collingwood was also only of the middle classes, and I'm pretty sure at least one admiral had actually risen from the lower deck (annoyingly I can't think who, now).

In Persuasion Jane Austen (two of whose brothers were naval officers, both ending their careers as Admirals) has Sir Walter Elliot saying he has strong objections to the navy as a profession

"First, as being the means of bringing persons of obscure birth into undue distinction, and raising men to honours which their fathers and grandfathers never dreamt of... One day last spring, in town, I was in company with two men, striking instances of what I am talking of; Lord St Ives, whose father we all know to have been a country curate, without bread to eat; I was to give place to Lord St Ives..."

While that's exaggerated for comic effect, there's more than a kernel of truth there in a baronet having to give way to someone of lower birth who had achieved greater rank by means of talent.

 

[Vertigo]

I'm absolutely no expert on this period of history (well any really if I'm honest ) so I can only give you what Forester gave me! He definitely had it that rank and patronage were still important but if you distinguished yourself and made sure someone important noticed then you could be promoted on merit. However an awful lot of people never made it past Lieutenant to Captain, serving their days out as first lieutenant. That said those very experienced lieutenants probably were crucial to the smooth running of the ships.

In this case I would say this character, Bush, was portrayed as something of a numbskull who initially resented Hornblower and eventually happily accepted Hornblower passing him over in promotion. But this ignorance was rather overplayed as he was not presented as someone of aristocratic rank or someone with patronage (in fact at the end of the book this is very obviously the case) and therefore he would have had to exhibit considerably more skill that he did to have received his promotion to Lieutenant. The way it is written though, I'm pretty sure the intention was to show how brilliant Hornblower was as he is constantly as the narrator comparing himself to Hornblower, and I felt this was overdone by an order of magnitude. Hornblower in this book really is presented as being too perfect. And by the end of the book I was gagging on this a little. Without that it would definitely have been a 4 star book maybe even a 5 star one.

But never mind it was still a good yarn!

 

[The Judge]

I've never read any Forester, Vertigo (though I saw some of the ITV Hornblower films with Ioan Gruffudd!) but I've dabbled in a few of the Bolitho series by Alexander Kent/Douglas Reeman, and I've read all the Patrick O'Brian Aubrey/Maturin books, which I loved (well, most of them -- the last few rather palled for me). If you've read them, where would you place the Hornblower books in a ranking?

 

[Vertigo]

I've not come across the Bolitho series and the O'Brien ones I do plan to read but haven't yet. David Weber acknowledges both Forester and O'Brien as major influences for his Honor Harrington books but I believe that Forester was the bigger influence (the first in the series is dedicated to him) which is what decided me on giving them a try. So sadly I can't make a comparison for you. I can tell you that I need a diagram of all the 'parts' of a sailing warship to hand whilst I'm reading them, though I'm beginning to remember them now

 

[The Judge]

Ah. I shall have to think about getting a Forester or two for myself, then, and making my own mind up!

I strongly recommend the O'Brians -- and I'm pretty sure the editions I had reproduced a diagram of a three-master at the beginning of each book which was invaluable! The beauty of the novels, for me, is that Maturin is distinctly un-naval, which allows for a good deal of humour at his expense, as well as spying and intrigue plots to leaven the sea-action a little. And apropos your complaint about this particular Hornblower novel, neither Aubrey nor Maturin are seen as perfect, quite the contrary.

 

[Vertigo]

Ah well I've seen the film of that one so have some idea.

The thing to watch out for with Hornblower is the reading order; the first chronologically was the sixth one written. If you take a look on Goodreads they list them their in chronological order which is the order I'm reading them (at least now, my first one was out of order!). One of the things I like about the Hornblower books is that it takes you through his whole career starting as a midshipman, whereas the Aubrey/Maturin books begin with Aubrey already a captain.

 

[JoanDrake]

I really don't think that's the case, not with the navy by the 1800s. Certainly there were still idiots around who should never have been given a command, but the navy couldn't have had the successes it did if it was "staffed largely by incompetents"! Increasingly officers were men who had received good training, often going to sea at the age of 12 or 13, being taught navigation etc on board ship, and having to achieve good results to progress. Admittedly influence and who-you-knew still played a good part in promotion, but it wasn't as in the army where commissions were actually paid for.

As to upper classes, it rather depends on how you define "upper". Nelson's father was a clergyman, as was Hood's, and I think Collingwood was also only of the middle classes, and I'm pretty sure at least one admiral had actually risen from the lower deck (annoyingly I can't think who, now).

In Persuasion Jane Austen (two of whose brothers were naval officers, both ending their careers as Admirals) has Sir Walter Elliot saying he has strong objections to the navy as a professionWhile that's exaggerated for comic effect, there's more than a kernel of truth there in a baronet having to give way to someone of lower birth who had achieved greater rank by means of talent.

I will bow to your greater knowledge, and again, I meant no offense. I realize the British Navy was justifiably regarded as the best in the world at that time, but was always told it was, like the Roman Army, built more on the experience of its Centurions/Lieutenants, rather than the brilliance of its Tribunes/Admirals


OTOH it did have some really amazing exceptions, like Nelson and one named Cochrane I've read of among many others. It's possible the admiration of the Lieutenant was also meant to emphasize what an extraordinary individual Hornblower was, a person you just couldn't help but admire.

 

[Vertigo]

...It's possible the admiration of the Lieutenant was also meant to emphasize what an extraordinary individual Hornblower was, a person you just couldn't help but admire.

I'm sure this is exactly what Forester was doing but he went way over the top with it. As I said in the review, had it been written from Hornblower's POV it would have been very painfully embarrassing. However in fairness I have only just realised just how early these books were written; the first in 1937 and this particular one in 1952. And in those times adventure stories tended to have heroes who were much too perfect; I suppose I should be more impressed that the previous ones presented him as a more flawed character than this (a little pressure from publishers perhaps?). In contrast Patrick O'Brien was writing in the seventies, a time when books and films were moving towards much more gritty realism, for example from John Wayne to Clint Eastwood (okay I'm not saying they moved all the way ) and consequently I suspect that his characters are likely to be much more realistically human.

 

[The Judge]

I will bow to your greater knowledge, and again, I meant no offense.

No offence taken! It just so happens I've picked up bits and pieces down the years, and on the odd occasion I know something I feel I have to let everyone know that I know!

And as I say, there were undoubtedly idiots who were wrongly promoted because of court connections -- since influence and patronage were important, inevitably in such a rank-oriented society -- and certainly there were shot-rolling ships where the captains and other officers were hated for incompetence or cruelty, but to a greater extent than in eg the French and Spanish navies, the captains were increasingly professionals. (The aspect of prize-money may have had something to do with that, perhaps, something not available to the army in the same way.)

As for Admirals, it's not something I fully understand myself, but after a man was made captain, all further advancement depended on seniority, so not even patronage could leap-frog a man ahead of someone else in the queue to being made a Rear-Admiral -- they were literally all waiting for someone higher up the ladder to die.

Ah well I've seen the film of that one so have some idea.

Hmmm. The film. That's another story, and not one O'Brian wrote.**

One of the things I like about the Hornblower books is that it takes you through his whole career starting as a midshipman, whereas the Aubrey/Maturin books begin with Aubrey already a captain.

It's been a while since I read it, and I gave the books away earlier in the year (dammit) so I can't check, but I'm pretty sure Jack is only a lieutenant at the start of book one, and thereafter only captain by way of honorific (in the same way a mid would be called "Captain" if he were the only officer left and he then had to captain the ship) hence Master and Commander but I take your point you're not seeing the whole of his naval career, though over the course of the series we do get to learn a good deal about his earlier adventures (including being turned before the mast for lechery!).



** The film itself didn't do anything for me, though I admit the action scenes are good, but a few years ago Portsmouth Historic Dockyard had a sail on display which had been flown on the Victory actually at Trafalgar. It had been damaged and there were holes from shot, and rips and gashes etc, and in one corner of the room they played the battle scene from M&C with the Surprise being peppered with shot, with that haunting music over it, and standing looking at the 200 year old damaged canvas, with the imagined battle playing by it, was very moving.

 

[Vertigo]

I wasn't expecting the film to do more than give me a sense of the style, in the same way that the Hornblower TV film stories shuffle things around rather but still give a feel for the style and characters. In fact now that I now they are separated by around 40 years it will be interesting to compare the styles of the two series.

(I noticed too late after my last post that we'd both been misspelling poor Mr O'Brian's name )

 

[The Judge]

I've finally got hold of a second-hand Hornblower novel, Mr. Midshipman Hornblower, which I gather isn't the first to be written, though it's the start of Hornblower's career in the navy. (Incidentally, that's one of the advantages of the O'Brian's that they are written in chronological order, so we progress through the protagonists' careers with them.)

I enjoyed the book, but for me its big failing is that it's less a novel than a series of self-contained short stories with one major incident per chapter, none of which are ever referred to again in the course of the later chapters, so there's no overarching plot and no character development. Nonetheless, a fast-paced read, with some exciting scenes.

 

[Vertigo]

Very much agree with you on this Judge; my exact comment was "... whereas this book is really a collection of short stories." the next chronological book - Lieutenant Hornblower - is much better in that it is a 'proper' novel rather than a collection of stories.

 

[The Judge]

I'll keep a look out for it. (And great to see you back here! Hope it was something good and/or profitable which kept you away.)

 

[Vertigo]

Very good - I went to live in Chamonix in my new (old) motor-home for 9 weeks. But I had to work as well as play so basically I skied, worked, slept and ate; no time for anything else! I had the best time - planning to repeat next year.