The Edgar Rice Burroughs Thread

[hitmouse]

One of the later John Carter books was ghosted by one of ERBs sons I think. Probably the only one written in the 3rd person.

 

[2DaveWixon]

John Carter was a terrific film Disney could have had a bother franchise on it s had had they marketed property. They should have called it John Carter of Mars , that alone would have made difference right there.

A really good point! and it's rather puzzling to see a huge company that is so based on marketing make that mistake...

Dave

 

[BAYLOR]

A really good point! and it's rather puzzling to see a huge company that is so based on marketing make that mistake...

Dave

I think part of it had to do with the box office failure Mars Needs Moms.

 

[tinkerdan]

One of the later John Carter books was ghosted by one of ERBs sons I think. Probably the only one written in the 3rd person.

Only in 1964 was the final clarification of the matter offered by Hulbert Burroughs

Although twenty-four year have passed and memories are dim, my brother (John Coleman Burroughs) recalls that at his Dads's suggestion he and ERB collaborated on A John Carter of Mars story for Whitman Publishing Company. The story appeared under the title John Carter of Mars in Whitman"s Better Little Book No 1402. Whitman had a very set formula for this--exactly 15,000 words--with text so arranged that the drawings on the opposite page depicted what was being told in the text. My Dad was never happy to write to such strict formula. Apparently, therefore, he worked with my brother on it. John also did all the illustrations for the book.

page 155 of Edgar Rice Burroughs: Master of Adventure by Richard A. Lupoff

 

[Lew Rockwell Fan]

That sounds familiar. And afterwards, didn't ERB rework that children's story into something aimed more at his normal audience? I think maybe then it appeared with some other Barsoom less-than-novel-length pieces in a "regular" book.

 

[tinkerdan]

John Carter and the Giant of Mars: and it is summed up at this website.
ERBList - John Carter and the Giant of Mars, Summarized

I have a copy in Ballentine Books that has both
John Carter and the Giant of Mars:
and
Skeleton Men of Jupiter
My copy is the one pictured in this page
ERBList - Skeleton Men of Mars, Summarized

 

[Vertigo]

That sounds familiar. And afterwards, didn't ERB rework that children's story into something aimed more at his normal audience? I think maybe then it appeared with some other Barsoom less-than-novel-length pieces in a "regular" book.

Actually to a modern reader I think all his work now reads a bit like it's written for the younger audience, apart from the nudity combined with his periodic slightly salacious reference to rounded breasts Sadly, having just read Chessmen of Mars (I was going through a third re-reading of the Barsoom books, so I am/have been a great fan of his work) I don't think I can read them any more. these were my thoughts:

Okay, so I’m probably going to get roasted for this but I think I’ve finally (at 59) outgrown the Barsoom novels. I used to love the excitement, heroism and adventure but now I find I just can’t take the Boy’s Own/Dime Western overblown romanticism. Are the books getting worse in this regard or is my tolerance becoming less? I suspect the latter but there’s only just so many times I can take reading text like this:

Hope was low in her brave little heart. How much more could she endure? She asked herself the question and then, with a brave shake of her head, she squared her shoulders. "I still live!" she said aloud.

Or this:

…twenty men against a small army; but of such stuff are the warriors of Barsoom.

The massive overuse (and repetition) of adjectives and adverbs that helped create the excitement when I was a teen and engendered fond tolerant smiles when I re-read the books in midlife, now has me gritting my teeth. Alongside the horrendously patronising attitude to women, who only seem to exist to be loved, imprisoned or rescued, I just find I no longer have the patience for these books. And, frankly, that is a little sad. I feel like I’m closing a door for the final time.

This is no condemnation of Burroughs he was writing for very much for his time and that is what his readers wanted and he delivered in bucketfuls. It’s just that it seems it’s no longer for me.

 

[Ameraka]

I like the Mars books despite these things. They're kind of a guilty pleasure, pure adventure with an exotic otherworldly flavor and honorable heroes, which I discovered in my 20s. Now if I read them again, I might think differently. I mean, they're not the greatest literature in the world, we have to take them for what they are, but they're excellent type of the genre. The sexism did annoy me but you gotta think what age they were written in. They're simple adventure tales set in a fictional Mars but there's something about them, a flavor that captivated me when I first read them.
I often don't re-read books much; usually they lose something each time I read them, though some books are an exception. I may re-read the Mars books someday and see if they hold up.
As a writer, I actually wrote a story that was kind of inspired by John Carter. The vague premise was a sort of "anti-John Carter". I'm not sure now what exactly I meant, except that the hero is not invincible and is pretty vulnerable most of the book. It's set in space, a future of humanity, which seems like a utopia but has many dystopian elements beneath the surface.... In any case, the John Carter series helped inspire me to write my first sci-fi book, which, considering how much I love writing AND scifi, was a long time in coming (now whether it is good or not.... my, it's amazing how little good stuff I've produced considering how much I've written.....)

 

[John Thiel III]

I never read the Tarzan because it didn't strike me as science fiction and that's what I was into.

I don't say Tarzan is either fantasy or science fiction, but it did have elements of both. The sciences are anthropology and zoology.

 

[John Thiel III]

I like the Mars books despite these things. They're kind of a guilty pleasure, pure adventure with an exotic otherworldly flavor and honorable heroes, which I discovered in my 20s. Now if I read them again, I might think differently. I mean, they're not the greatest literature in the world, we have to take them for what they are, but they're excellent type of the genre. The sexism did annoy me but you gotta think what age they were written in. They're simple adventure tales set in a fictional Mars but there's something about them, a flavor that captivated me when I first read them.
I often don't re-read books much; usually they lose something each time I read them, though some books are an exception. I may re-read the Mars books someday and see if they hold up.
As a writer, I actually wrote a story that was kind of inspired by John Carter. The vague premise was a sort of "anti-John Carter". I'm not sure now what exactly I meant, except that the hero is not invincible and is pretty vulnerable most of the book. It's set in space, a future of humanity, which seems like a utopia but has many dystopian elements beneath the surface.... In any case, the John Carter series helped inspire me to write my first sci-fi book, which, considering how much I love writing AND scifi, was a long time in coming (now whether it is good or not.... my, it's amazing how little good stuff I've produced considering how much I've written.....)

I don't see any sexism in the novel at all, if by sexism you mean discrimination against women. Dejah Thoris is a heroine right along with Carter as hero, and Isis is running things in THE GODS OF MARS.

 

[John Thiel III]

I'd definitely call Burroughs' works literature. It has the themes of literature, even great literature. For example, THE GODS OF MARS is critical of the concept of heaven and the gods are shown up in it. Those are things tackled by literature, for instance Shakespeare.

 

[tinkerdan]

I have never read Edgar Rice Burroughs work with any reverence in the sense of a notion that he wrote literary masterpieces. Perhaps that is one saving grace to being able to continue to read and enjoy his work.

For me his books were always stuck there in that realm called pulp fiction; because back when I read those books that's what a majority of academics [my teachers of those times] thought of such work.

It is true that the books are rife with the tropes of the times; but if one can realistically fall back and examine tropos for what they are and look at the author from within the time of his contemporaries, these can prove to be real treasures in a historical sense. I think that has to be emphasized rather than ignored, because these people were living and writing within the limitations of their times. Though it's refreshing to see any historical piece that transcends those tropes to fit within modern times, it's more likely that we'll fall short of recognizing those element because we've reached beyond the point they've transcended.[Yet according to many we haven't gone far enough.]

Too often, like Don Quixote, we find ourselves fighting the windmills of trope without full understanding of that which we are staring at with myopic vision.

For instance:
"I still live!" she said aloud.

Despite everything that preceded it, this was a large step in the right direction. If memory serves, this is a large theme in his work and often is reflected in the male characters. To have the female declare this was a large step in the right direction toward giving the women a stronger role while trying not to destroy the usual tropes for femininity. [Clearly for many of the Don Quixote's of Tropes today it is not enough; but he was not writing this for today.]

I feel that largely the disaffection for these books comes less from an intelligent understanding of tropes in respect to history than from an attitude of death and destruction to tropes fostered along the lines of something from Fahrenheit 451 than from true call for dialogue about such use of tropes. We can change the tropes, they in fact change over time, but we shouldn't rewrite or delete the mistakes of the past nor should we neglect them as such but should examine them for what they are and were at that time and in context. Otherwise you do lose your enjoyment for them, because you're expecting something different from something that won't and shouldn't change.

 

[Lew Rockwell Fan]

I'd definitely call Burroughs' works literature. It has the themes of literature, even great literature. For example, THE GODS OF MARS is critical of the concept of heaven and the gods are shown up in it. Those are things tackled by literature, for instance Shakespeare.

Right along with his glorius pulpyness, ERB did clearly include ideas that were quite un-PC for his time. Kind of surprising really. I distinctly remember a mature Tarzan, after he had the civilized estate in Africa, being aware of a white hunter stalking a lion while the lion stalked the man, concluding he'd bet on the lion, and that there was no reason for him to interfere because the lion was just as entitled to kill the man, indeed more so, as the other way around. PETA would approve. So do I actually.

 

[Vertigo]

I don't see any sexism in the novel at all, if by sexism you mean discrimination against women. Dejah Thoris is a heroine right along with Carter as hero, and Isis is running things in THE GODS OF MARS.

I wouldn't say his work is actually sexist or at least not discriminatory in the sense of being misogynistic. But whilst he does paint Dejah Thoris as a proud and capable heroine, he ultimately still only uses her as someone for Carter to save again and again. And Tara in The Chessmen is much the same; strong willed and proud but ultimately she continuously needs to be saved by Gahan.

Ultimately Burroughs' Barsoom novels are just dime Westerns set on a fictional Mars. Big tough honourable male heroes fighting dastardly villains and saving the damsel in distress. As @tinkerdan says they are pulp but in the best possible way. I think it's wrong to try and claim any high literary standard for them and I think Burroughs would have been vastly amused at anyone trying to do so. He did what he did very well; few other pulp authors came close to him but they were still pulp; just very good pulp.

And I loved them for that. All I was saying above really is that I've reached a point where I'm now struggling to read even such good pulp as Burroughs produced.

 

[Zendexor]

Correct in essence, but technically wrong. The Tarzan series went radically down hill after, I dunno, the first dozen or so and in one of the later Tarzans, set during WW II I believe, ERB copied the movies and actually had Tarzan swing on a vine. Sure surprised me. Wasn't in Africa. I want to say Borneo. Maybe Burma. It had a horribly overdone ignorant GI from the Bronx in it. It was almost painful.

I don't blame ERB a bit for continuing to crank out the Tarzans after her ran out of good ideas. The money was fantastic and obviously some people must have liked them enough to continue to buy them. So, a fair deal.

Sumatra, actually. The one in which Tarzan fights Japs.

 

[2DaveWixon]

I read the entire Barsoom series, the Earth's Core series, the
The Land that Time Forgot series, the Venus series, another series about the future of N. America, & just the 1st Tarzan story. What a wonderful imagination the ERB had! Tarzan actually went to the Earth's core in one of the later books in that series.

Pellucidar, right?

 

[Extollager]

I wouldn't say his work is actually sexist or at least not discriminatory in the sense of being misogynistic. But whilst he does paint Dejah Thoris as a proud and capable heroine, he ultimately still only uses her as someone for Carter to save again and again. And Tara in The Chessmen is much the same; strong willed and proud but ultimately she continuously needs to be saved by Gahan.

Ultimately Burroughs' Barsoom novels are just dime Westerns set on a fictional Mars. Big tough honourable male heroes fighting dastardly villains and saving the damsel in distress.

The last time I finished a Barsoom book was before 1974 (when I started keeping records), but I'll comment anyway. I find the damsel-to-be-rescued thing less annoying that the current thing in which the heroine is so tough that she outfights seasoned warriors, punching their faces out, hacking 'em up with her broadsword, and so on. This seems to me flagrantly to pander to the current zeitgeist at the expense of historical and biological plausibility, to the degree that the "illusion" of reality is deflated and I'm made conscious that I'm watching a current movie or looking over a current book. If Burroughs had wanted his heroines to be warrior princesses, he could have postulated that, on Barsoom, sexual dimorphism is radically less pronounced than on earth (as was evidently the case in the John Carter movie discussed above). Otherwise this "tough as the guys" thing just reeks of Agenda. It's all the worse when the producers pander to the boys by having their warrior babe not only outfight male warriors, but have her do so in a bikini. Of course one can just say "It's fantasy! What's the problem!"

 

[Vertigo]

The last time I finished a Barsoom book was before 1974 (when I started keeping records), but I'll comment anyway. I find the damsel-to-be-rescued thing less annoying that the current thing in which the heroine is so tough that she outfights seasoned warriors, punching their faces out, hacking 'em up with her broadsword, and so on. This seems to me flagrantly to pander to the current zeitgeist at the expense of historical and biological plausibility, to the degree that the "illusion" of reality is deflated and I'm made conscious that I'm watching a current movie or looking over a current book. If Burroughs had wanted his heroines to be warrior princesses, he could have postulated that, on Barsoom, sexual dimorphism is radically less pronounced than on earth (as was evidently the case in the John Carter movie discussed above). Otherwise this "tough as the guys" thing just reeks of Agenda. It's all the worse when the producers pander to the boys by having their warrior babe not only outfight male warriors, but have her do so in a bikini. Of course one can just say "It's fantasy! What's the problem!"

Oh I totally agree with you in respect of the modern warrior, but I still did find that ERB's only role for the girl seems to be rescued multiple times. I guess I just got tired of it. My last read of these books was probably in the '80s and I loved them then. As I said I think they're maybe just not for me any longer. Which ultimately is rather sad... Bear in mind that I also hardly read any fantasy these days so that probably has an impact as well.

 

[Extollager]

Oh I totally agree with you in respect of the modern warrior, but I still did find that ERB's only role for the girl seems to be rescued multiple times.

It sounds like a formula that would wear thin over multiple books. By the way, I forgot that I did reread a Barsoom book recently -- A Fighting Man of Mars, only about a year and a half ago. It was pretty entertaining, but obviously it hasn't been coming frequently to mind.

 

[BAYLOR]

Other writers have been doing books set in the universethe created.