City of Stairs by Robert Jackson Bennett

not read it yet - I need to reduce the TBR pile first - but like Mirror Empire it's one I'm actually looking forward to based on word of mouth. (not heard anything bad yet!)
 
Reading it the moment and about a third of the way through. It is good, but hardly monumental :)
 
I like your review, so I'll add it to my reading list. :)

I think your criticisms of fantasy are a little unfair, though - previously, some authors may have worked through laundry lists. But fantasy used to be the little kid of speculative fiction, and now that it dominates, appears to be maturing nicely to explore new ground. That's probably another discussion though. :)
 
I was impressed with the review and will certainly give it a look if it turns up in the local shop.

I think your criticisms of fantasy are a little unfair, though - previously, some authors may have worked through laundry lists. But fantasy used to be the little kid of speculative fiction, and now that it dominates, appears to be maturing nicely to explore new ground. That's probably another discussion though. :)

I'll go off and start it. :)
 
I find fantasy to be an incredibly conventional genre--much more than science fiction, which (at least theoretically) explicitly aims to challenge conventions through speculation. An obvious exception would be new weird fantasy, like Mieville or VanderMeer. But on the epic/s&s side of things, very few works make serious breaks with convention on world-building. Some departures, yes, but these are often either relatively minor or simply exchange one set of conventions for another (e.g. flintlock fantasy trading medieval for early modern Europe). And there are even fewer attempts to explore fundamentally different of social or political relations. When I've argued that more fantasy should, a lot of the response has been "well, you can't have everything be 'unrealistic' or there'd be nothing to hold on to."

While I find those kinds of arguments deeply problematic, I do accept the fact that experimentation for experimentation's sake can lead in the wrong direction. In other words, it's better to tell a good conventional story than to prioritize experimentation to the detriment of story. But that's one reason I found City of Stairs so refreshing--it can't be pigeonholed into a set of fantasy conventions and it does explore social/political relations outside the main assumptions in the genre, yet it never feels forced or gets in the way--it feels intuitive, integrated and fully-realized. At it's core it's a very good story.
 
There are 21 or so pages in the sample and if a reader samples the e-book they will be 21 uninterrupted pages. That's usually a reasonable sampling. Unfortunately it was not enough to hook me.

Maybe I take something special to be hooked and the only way to define that might be to suggest that a person sample the book Full Fathom Five by Max Gladstone. I was hooked on that from the first page. Even from the first paragraph. So maybe I'm a bit easy.

So why does this novel not grab me? As with some few others I could blame it on the present tense writing, but I'm a fan of present tense when its done well so its not the Present tense part.

It might perhaps be the pedantic nature of the nothingness of plot. What I mean by that is that it clearly is a mystery; but not so clearly depicting who the main characters might be and with all the excess world building being jammed in it's difficult to get a good grasp of the mystery or even be concerned that anyone was killed so I begin to doubt it's a mystery.

But if it's not a mystery then why do we have two conundrums in the 21 page span or three if you count the quoted texts at the beginning of chapters. The quoted text add nothing; yet and I'm not greatly tempted to find out if later we find that they mean something to the story. The other conundrums are first the largish secretary who for no explained reason shows the porter something in or on his hand then grasps the clipboard from the porter and rips out a page and burns it. The next is the; whatever is so anomalously offensive on CD Troonyi's office walls. Now these are the stuff that mysteries are made of as Bogey might say. But are they enough to keep me going--not yet.

You might say that my experience through out the whole sample is typified by a comment from one of the characters.

[QUOTE from kindle sample]Pitry sighs, If he were to die and see all his life flash before his eyes in his final moment, he is fairly sure it would be a boring show.[/QUOTE]

The style of writing seems to be well represented by the sample below.

[QUOTE from kindle sample]She watches.
She watches the crumbling arches, the leaning, bulky vaults, the tattered spires and the winding streets. She watches the faded tracery on the building facades, the patchwork of tiles on the sagging domes, the soot-stained lunettes, and the warped, cracked windows. She watches the people--short, rag-wrapped, malnourished--stumbling through oblong portals and porticoes, beggers in a city of spectral wonders. She sees everything she expected to see, yet all these dreary ruins set her mind alight, wondering what they could have been like seventy, eighty, ninety years ago.

Bulikov. City of Walls. Most Holy Mount. Seat of the World. The City of Stairs.[/QUOTE]

It's not bad; but for me it left much to be desired and I'll leave it to others to decide what they like.
Somewhere deeper into the piece there might reside all those quirky departure elements mentioned but for now in the part that was meant to hook me there is very little evidence.

So far it feels disorganized and distracted and a bit half baked but if we can trust the author to come through with some insight on the conundrums it might all come out in the wash.
 
I've just finished reading this and absolutely loved it. I really enjoyed the plot and the setting, but most of all I enjoyed Shara's character. It was nice to find a female character that didn't need either stunning looks, awesome fighting skills or huge magical abilities to keep ahead of the game. She's bright and well-read, and actually someone I can relate to (not to say I don't love the Lara Croft types or the Vins, because I do; just nice to find a female character who's more like me and the people I know).

Also,
I loved that at the end it looks like we're heading to a chosen one scenario, and then we find out Shara isn't a 'chosen one', or Blessed, after all. She's still going to have to work hard and think fast. She doesn't get any special breaks.

Oddly enough, I've just started reading Max Gladstone's Three Parts Dead and so far the two have a lot in common...
 
Please do: it's something I'm quite interested in.

I seem to remember doing so. Though it was half a year ago and I can't recall what it might have been titled or where I'd have put it or what its point was. (Also, note the "seem to".)
 
Now let's not go pointing fingers at who started it all.

I read both and found the only similarities to be in world building; but those are much thinner than what I call striking.
The character development is totally different and I found Three Parts Dead characters to be more alive than City of Stairs and the world in City of Stairs upstages the characters.Three Parts Dead the world building is almost annoyingly difficult to squeeze off the pages sometimes and you have to pull it all out of the character development. I personally like characters more than worlds so Three Parts Dead works much better for me.

What I found the most annoying about City of Stairs is the withholding information to create a mystery that deflates when you find out that it really is mostly a writers device to withhold the information for some sense of suspense and the payoff wasn't enough for me to totally forgive that. But that's just me.

The styles of writing of the two authors are no where similar to me.
 
I've just finished reading this and absolutely loved it. I really enjoyed the plot and the setting, but most of all I enjoyed Shara's character. It was nice to find a female character that didn't need either stunning looks, awesome fighting skills or huge magical abilities to keep ahead of the game. She's bright and well-read, and actually someone I can relate to (not to say I don't love the Lara Croft types or the Vins, because I do; just nice to find a female character who's more like me and the people I know).

Also,
I loved that at the end it looks like we're heading to a chosen one scenario, and then we find out Shara isn't a 'chosen one', or Blessed, after all. She's still going to have to work hard and think fast. She doesn't get any special breaks.

Oddly enough, I've just started reading Max Gladstone's Three Parts Dead and so far the two have a lot in common...

Glad you liked it! It's a wonderful book, IMO. I'll be voting it Best Fantasy Novel for the Locus Awards, and have already voted for it in the Gemmells (for the Legend Award).
 
I find fantasy to be an incredibly conventional genre--much more than science fiction, which (at least theoretically) explicitly aims to challenge conventions through speculation. An obvious exception would be new weird fantasy, like Mieville or VanderMeer. But on the epic/s&s side of things, very few works make serious breaks with convention on world-building. Some departures, yes, but these are often either relatively minor or simply exchange one set of conventions for another (e.g. flintlock fantasy trading medieval for early modern Europe). And there are even fewer attempts to explore fundamentally different of social or political relations. When I've argued that more fantasy should, a lot of the response has been "well, you can't have everything be 'unrealistic' or there'd be nothing to hold on to."

As fantasy hit the big leagues in the 80s, it became underwent the homogenization that all popular genres do. A great many people read with a genre precisely because they know what to expect, and they don't want to be surprised. I used to work at a used bookstore, and I didn't have much luck expending the horizons of fantasy fans into the less prominent regions of their genre. People who read 4-6 books a week would sometimes ask me for a recommendation (this was in the mid-90s), and I'd suggest something like Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, or Michael Moorcock. The feedback was not positive. These guys knew exactly what they wanted, and they wanted more of the same (Dragonlance, Eddings, Brooks, Goodkind, etc.).

It is disheartening that a genre that had its roots in weirdness should have evolved into comfort food. The kind of exotic and strange works that were common in the early days of the genre (Howard, Vance, Lieber, C.L. Moore, Clark Ashton Smith) would have little chance of gaining traction in the modern fantasy market. That has changed somewhat in the last 10 years, led by Mieville. But even his works are shunted into a sub-genre that has to be labeled 'weird fantasy' so it doesn't lead to unanticipated distress among readers accustomed to R.A. Salvatore. To my way of thinking, 'weird fantasy' should be a redundancy, like 'spy espionage,' or 'pulpy noir.'
 
As fantasy hit the big leagues in the 80s, it became underwent the homogenization that all popular genres do. A great many people read with a genre precisely because they know what to expect, and they don't want to be surprised. I used to work at a used bookstore, and I didn't have much luck expending the horizons of fantasy fans into the less prominent regions of their genre. People who read 4-6 books a week would sometimes ask me for a recommendation (this was in the mid-90s), and I'd suggest something like Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, or Michael Moorcock. The feedback was not positive. These guys knew exactly what they wanted, and they wanted more of the same (Dragonlance, Eddings, Brooks, Goodkind, etc.).

It is disheartening that a genre that had its roots in weirdness should have evolved into comfort food. The kind of exotic and strange works that were common in the early days of the genre (Howard, Vance, Lieber, C.L. Moore, Clark Ashton Smith) would have little chance of gaining traction in the modern fantasy market. That has changed somewhat in the last 10 years, led by Mieville. But even his works are shunted into a sub-genre that has to be labeled 'weird fantasy.' To my way of thinking, 'weird fantasy' should be a redundancy, like 'spy espionage,' or 'pulpy noir.'

Completely agree. Fantasy, more than science fiction, is a fundamentally conservative genre--not politically conservative, but as your anecdote illustrates, in the sense of being "risk-averse." Epic fantasy, in the traditional of Tolkein, is even thematically oriented toward "restoring the rightful/correct order of things" in face of transgressions or change.

City of Stairs is by no means the only novel to challenge that paradigm, but I found the way it did so positively exhilarating, and thought-provoking in a way science fiction often can be but fantasy rare is.
 
Conventional Fantasy is based on a West European medieval setting and various folk legends and fairy tales, this sounds like it is based on Russian history around the time of the Golden Horde, with maybe a dash of Central and Eastern Europe during the Ottoman expansion.
 
City of Stairs is by no means the only novel to challenge that paradigm, but I found the way it did so positively exhilarating, and thought-provoking in a way science fiction often can be but fantasy rare is.
After witnessing Mieville's wonderful talent to create extremely imaginative and rich worlds, only for his plots to fail horribly, and after reading a number of unconventional fantasies, from Clark Ashton Smith, through the Dying Earth, Brust's Taltos, Feist's Empire, that pretty large series about the people with insect aspects and a quasi-Ottoman empire writteh by what must be the great-grandson of a prominent Russian composer that I'd almost forgotten about, and Lynch's Gentlemen Bastards, to the first book of the Powder Mage trilogy I can say with some confidence that there are quite a few fantasy works that are not focused on medieval Europe.

There are three factors in play here, first of all the writers of fantasy probably started as fantasy fans themselves, and they are writing more of what they themselves would like.
Second, Fantasy is just very idealized history and fairy tales and myths, it is the latest incarnation of escapist fiction for children that can be appreciated by grown ups.
Third, clichés sell.There is an established market and established editors in search of a particular commodity, and that market will reward those that can deliver more of the same.
But this is different, you have to read it, is not the best selling point when recommending a book.
Plot, world building and characterization are more important than the fact that it is a rehashing of the campaign of Septimius Severus against the Parthians, with a more original magical gimmick thrown in.

That is all.
 
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I read both and found the only similarities to be in world building
The styles of writing of the two authors are no where similar to me.

I think that for me the similarities were not exactly in writing style, but in the overall feel of the two (finished Three Parts Dead yesterday; was very good). As in, stories that are at the same time fantasy, mystery and urban fantasy. I've been reading a lot of Peter V Brett, Brian Staveley etc so this felt fresh and different.

City of Stairs is by no means the only novel to challenge that paradigm, but I found the way it did so positively exhilarating, and thought-provoking in a way science fiction often can be but fantasy rare is.

Exactly how I felt when reading it. :)
 

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