Writing speed questions

[Venusian Broon]

Now I know from personal experience from writing scientific papers, analyst reports, models and other things that over time I do get much quicker at writing and constructing things. My efficiency gets better. So I expect that as I get better at writing, part of that will manifest as being more efficient in terms of time - word counts per unit time going up, less re-drafting required etc...

But progress in creative writing seems so glacial in comparison!

Yes - it is the first time I've ever written any fiction of novel length.
Yes - it's massive with far too many words.
Yes - this re-write I'm on involves a lot of changes therefore is slow (it is the first one I've done, so I suppose I'm learning on the job as well and I'm doing a 'double re-drafting', so going over the new chapters again reasonably quickly after re-writing them. But, hey, when I get a system into my head it sticks.)
Yes - I have no real deadlines, self-imposed or otherwise.
Yes - I'm writing a huge essay here on Chrons rather than re-drafting.

So the questions:

What are your experiences of your writing speed? Are you now twice, three-times or tens times faster than when you started? How long did it take you to improve? (I really mean in producing a full novel length work from scratch to a finished state - so that includes re-drafting.)

Did you deliberately try and improve your writing speed? Or was it one of those things that just 'fell into place'. And if it was deliberate - was it just deadlines and willpower or did you do anything else?

Would there be a nice 'optimum' time to write a 100k (or thereabouts) novel from scratch? What I mean by this is, of course we'd all love to write an award winning multi-million selling novel in two weeks, but in reality of course this just doesn't happen.

Thus if you are sitting in front of an agent or editor and telling them 'I have a sequel to this work I'm showing you' and they say 'Really interested, how long can we expect to see it?' then what's the sort of answer they might expect? (and accept!) One complete novel a year? I think Iain Banks was more or less producing novels at that rate. However I'm sure though there are those that are faster and slower and it will depend on a lot of different factors. Good to hear some real experiences regarding this question.

Therefore would it be a good idea if your long-term goal is to be published, and you do have multiple novels in the pipeline so to speak, to deliberately try and get a much faster writing style?

(I ask this question because I remember someone blogging elsewhere a while ago that he had got a publishing deal with his first novel that tied him to produce at least one other book - but when he got to writing that he failed at it, because he couldn't handle the shorter time that the publisher gave him to write the second. Essentially it completely messed up his writing pace and style. Has that happened to anyone?)

Right, I should get back to my WiP....

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I find editing is staggeringly slower ...

 

[thaddeus6th]

Aye, editing is slower.

My pace has increased somewhat (for a first draft of non-comedy I try for 3,000 words a day or so. Hit 5,000 once but that's unusual). A large part of that is down to better clarity when writing, and better preparation/planning.

I strongly believe the rate of writing is highly variable. I work best trying for 3k a day, with only a couple of days off (or working lightly) a month. Others find it better to do a huge amount then have a couple of days off. Some swine can actually write tons of stuff, constantly. Don't try and force yourself into someone else's writing habits.

Hard for me to comment on a full end-to-start time for a novel. My first one, Bane of Souls, was originally begun as a writing exercise so I wouldn't go rusty, and I spent a huge amount of time building the world. The second, Journey to Altmortis, I did more or less focus on entirely, with a view to self-publishing, and it probably took me 12-18 months. My current WIP has been underway for a long time, but during that period I've worked on two mid-sized books (about 40k each) and about 18 short stories, plus it's the first part of a trilogy so I've got to try and get it to work by itself but also as the first of three parts.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I'm one of those swines with huge output, if I want: at least that's what people think. In truth, I am not the fastest writer in the world, but I am a quick editor/rewriter (so sorry to all those who find editing slow.) And in blog posts and what not I mostly splurge out what's in my head onto the page and that's that.

Anyway to answer your questions:


What are your experiences of your writing speed? Are you now twice, three-times or tens times faster than when you started? How long did it take you to improve? (I really mean in producing a full novel length work from scratch to a finished state - so that includes re-drafting.)

I'm quite a bit quicker, mostly because I tend to write closer to good quality in first drafts and have a better idea of my process. EG the new baby keeps stalling. In the past I'd have struggled on and had a hellish rewrite, this time I've stopped to work out why. And that's to do with pacing, and conflict and all the stuff I've got more confident about as time went on.

How long did it take me to improve? Well, I'm writing novel seven at the moment (although only two are an edited, honed thing of beauty) and I would say it went like this (but bear in mind I work on stuff simultaneously, so when I say 18 months, that's not solid on that book):

Novel 1 - 106,000 words took in the region of two years (but has still to have a final edit), and about 18 rewrites. This is the one coming out next year, btw.

Novel 2 - its sequel took in the region of eighteen months - it needs another big edit once Ms Edgerton teethies it. It's had very few major rewrites, mostly just tidying up and adding.

Novel 3 - it took about four months to write the first draft of. Then it's had about five rewrites, those led by editorial advice, over about 2 years.

Novel 4 - took about five months to knock out something, then multiple rewrites. It's been the hardest to date to write, but took significantly less time that novel 1, so that was good. I'm about 18 months down the line with it and expect to working on it for another eight months or so under editorial guidance.

Novel 5 - the third book of the trilogy. It's been slow as I had a lot of strands to sew together, all in all has taken about a year, but there's more work to do on it. (another planned review by me prior to editorial which will be after a beta-read that someone's doing (It's been difficult, this one, as there is only a poor of about five people who've read the two previous books, the heroes) and then editorial advice.

Somewhere in there I have a trunked novel which I'm still stuck on.

I've been writing about four years, so it's taken me four years to improve to the level I'm at, which isn't much quicker but does take less drafts.

Did you deliberately try and improve your writing speed? Or was it one of those things that just 'fell into place'. And if it was deliberate - was it just deadlines and willpower or did you do anything else?

I didn't try to improve, but was impatient to do so. Mostly once I found my style/voice it fell into place and got easier. Some of it was driven by will power, some of it by deadlines, and those deadlines have become more significant and I expect will continue to do so. I like a nice deadline, though, I work better with an end in mind.

Would there be a nice 'optimum' time to write a 100k (or thereabouts) novel from scratch? What I mean by this is, of course we'd all love to write an award winning multi-million selling novel in two weeks, but in reality of course this just doesn't happen.

For me, about ten weeks for a first draft (which will be shorter than the final version) and then about six weeks for each redraft, of which there's usually at least five. So 40 weeks for the writing, but then there's the letting it simmer stage between each rewrite, so anywhere between 18-24 months feels good for me. (While it's simmering I work on something else.)

Thus if you are sitting in front of an agent or editor and telling them 'I have a sequel to this work I'm showing you' and they say 'Really interested, how long can we expect to see it?' then what's the sort of answer they might expect? (and accept!) One complete novel a year? I think Iain Banks was more or less producing novels at that rate. However I'm sure though there are those that are faster and slower and it will depend on a lot of different factors. Good to hear some real experiences regarding this question.

I think a year is the norm, but some are faster and slower. Juliet Mushens answered this on #askagent once, and said more or less that. More than two years starts to affect momentum, though. Interestingly, when I got signed I had another novel to the mostly polished stage, but it's taken a year before my agent wanted to see it because that's how long it took the one I was signed for to get up to scratch.

Therefore would it be a good idea if your long-term goal is to be published, and you do have multiple novels in the pipeline so to speak, to deliberately try and get a much faster writing style?

I don't think it's about that, exactly. Look at Patrick Rothfuss. However, on the economy scale of things, if you want to earn any money from it, I think you do need to be able to produce at a reasonable rate. That 1-2 years rate, say. I think, like Thad said, it's about finding what works for you. I'm one of the few writers I know who happily bounces between three or four projects, others finish one to the end first and then take a break. It's up to you to find what works for you.

 

[Brian G Turner]

What are your experiences of your writing speed

Set yourself clear deadlines, and stick them - that can help with a push!

 

[Rafellin]

My speed has remained about the same, but it's not rational anyway - my last three works had a creation rate of around 40,000 words in under 14 days. Sub-600 word flash fiction I can do in about 25 minutes - if the inspiration is captured. Conversely, I've had flash fiction peices that have taken me several hours.

I am getting better at writing - in prose construction, anyway. Less syntactical slip ups, better diversity of vocabulary. Still working on consistency of voice, but it is improving.

I strive to get correct grammar first time out, getting it to a point where I don't have to think about it. A background in coding helps with that.

Review passes are getting easier, but I remain convinced that I miss more; for all that my proof readers tell me otherwise.

Editing is usually small-scale. I write what I like and only publish what I am happy with. My editors work with me - usually applying shouting and sarcasm to begin with - but the revisions are surgical and filigree rather than opencast and amputation.

In summary: your 'creation speed' will improve. But it will never feel quicker.

As a piece of personal advice:

F*ck the word count, the pages-per-day, the obsessive checking of how much you have produced. Write your story or stories and be bound by only one rule: 'each week, I will write something'. Be relaxed, have fun. Never stop. When it's done, smile. Then write some thing else for a week or two. Then come back to it and start refining the beast you made.

 

[Mouse]

I'm gonna copy springs...

What are your experiences of your writing speed? Are you now twice, three-times or tens times faster than when you started? How long did it take you to improve? (I really mean in producing a full novel length work from scratch to a finished state - so that includes re-drafting.)

I've been writing forever (since primary school). I'd say I was slower now than when I was at school, say. But that's because I have boring adult stuff to do now and not as much time to write any more.

It takes me about a year. Editing is much quicker for me, but I turn out fairly polished first drafts. I'm improving all the time.

Did you deliberately try and improve your writing speed? Or was it one of those things that just 'fell into place'. And if it was deliberate - was it just deadlines and willpower or did you do anything else?

No.

Would there be a nice 'optimum' time to write a 100k (or thereabouts) novel from scratch? What I mean by this is, of course we'd all love to write an award winning multi-million selling novel in two weeks, but in reality of course this just doesn't happen.

I don't get what you mean by optimum time.

Thus if you are sitting in front of an agent or editor and telling them 'I have a sequel to this work I'm showing you' and they say 'Really interested, how long can we expect to see it?' then what's the sort of answer they might expect? (and accept!) One complete novel a year? I think Iain Banks was more or less producing novels at that rate. However I'm sure though there are those that are faster and slower and it will depend on a lot of different factors. Good to hear some real experiences regarding this question.

Yes, a year.

Therefore would it be a good idea if your long-term goal is to be published, and you do have multiple novels in the pipeline so to speak, to deliberately try and get a much faster writing style?

Yes, it's good to have novels in the pipeline. No, writing speed doesn't matter unless you have a deadline.

 

[RobPrescott]

I wrote what I hope will be will be my first novel in about nine months, from May to December last year. Editing, yeah... still working on it now. My second, the sequel, I've done about 30,000 words on, started around March this year. I think once you start getting feedback, and are also going back and forth between editing an existing work and writing a new one creativity can get horribly stifled. But... Ah, I remember the good days of writing the first where an afternoon of writing would yield another 4,000 words or so. Followed by a week or so of turning it into, you know, sentences and stuff. It makes me almost want to start something fresh, but I feel I owe it to the characters I've created to see their story through to completion, published or otherwise, before I can move on and start something else.

 

[tinkerdan]

I think it went something like this::

Blank page-blank mind
Ah words -chain words together
words make sentences- chain sentences together
Sentences make paragraph- enough of those makes a page
Many pages make a chapter.

Ah good- let's go back now and write something that makes sense.

Eventually you'll get pretty confident that you can put on paper what you want to say. The hardest thing then will be choosing which things you need to say of all those you would like to say. Best to put them all down on paper and weed them out later.

So let's get cracking.

 

[Juliana]

I found I definitely grew in both speed and stamina (number of hours I can spend writing). I wasn't pushing for it, it was just a natural result of time spent on my laptop. Like starting out power-walking, learning to jog and then working up to a full marathon.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

That's interesting, @Juliana. When I first started writing I could throw out an insane amount. It exploded on me. Now, I have to be more disciplined and actively tell myself to go and write. Imtake more enjoyment from the technical aspects, though, so don't feel I'm missing out, but that rush of love and sheer creativity is gone.

In fact, I'd say my writing style has come round closer to Mouse's - smaller daily word count but closer to final draft quality.

 

[thaddeus6th]

There's a large divergence for me between comedy and 'serious' stuff. The serious stuff I blitz through then redraft at length (it does tend to be 2-3 times as large as comedy, for me). Comedy I try and get as close to finished as I can with the first draft. Partly that's because it gets almost immediately thrown at an unfortunate beta reader, and I'd guess trying to beta-read unfunny comedy would be awful, and partly it's because I think it's easier to hone serious stuff and whittle it into good shape. Trying to create a one-liner and insert it into pre-existing text is usually harder than just making it up first time.

 

[DoctorWhat]

I'm not new to writing, who amongst us is! But I am new to 'taking it seriously'.
I started out with an aim to write 1000 words a day come rain or shine (preferably without cliches!) but it was more like 500. Although now, after a few months, it is definitely nearer the 1500 - 2000 mark. I must admit, however, to being cheered by the comments of novels taking a year at least. I sometimes lose heart at the enormity of it all - but if I look at it in those terms, it's coming along nicely. (Must learn to be more positive!! )

 

[Venusian Broon]

A-ha! this is how the multi-quote works. Excellent.

Anyway I've done a fair bit on the WiP today, so as a reward I can have a go on Chrons...

I find editing is staggeringly slower ...

Luckily I am positively adoring the re-drafting process, so I'm finding it a bit quicker. (Is there something wrong with me? I may get tired of it on the 8th or 9th re-draft mind you...) For example I converted chapter 46 2.7k words, draft 1 into a much better chapter 43 2.0k words, draft 2 yesterday. I feel positively clean and streamlined . And I've not changed the order of the chapters, that's three previous chapters that have been staked through the heart and turned to dust. (mwah wah wah...)

I strongly believe the rate of writing is highly variable. I work best trying for 3k a day, with only a couple of days off (or working lightly) a month.

This is part of my natural tempo as well - I think it's healthy to be able to say, on a particular day, 'No I feel any attempt to write will just end in frustration' and just go and do other things. Maybe I do that once a week or fortnight. The other thing is setting up a very rigid timetable of writing that must be done usually becomes unstuck and I know can sometimes bring a bit of the blues that is ultimately more disruptive - life will always get in the way - so its good I think to get used to unforeseen stops.

I'm one of those swines with huge output...in blog posts and what not I mostly splurge out what's in my head onto the page and that's that.

Point proven . Seriously though, really enjoyed reading your whole response Springs.

I'm quite a bit quicker, mostly because I tend to write closer to good quality in first drafts and have a better idea of my process...I didn't try to improve, but was impatient to do so. Mostly once I found my style/voice it fell into place and got easier. Some of it was driven by will power, some of it by deadlines, and those deadlines have become more significant and I expect will continue to do so. I like a nice deadline, though, I work better with an end in mind.

This speaks to me. When I first started writing, I spent something like six months on a 5k short. Now I'm confident that with the preparation, I can 'knock together' a short story to the point I'd let someone else read it in under 5 days. I think the difference is I've just not put the deadlines in, so perhaps it's time for that. I suppose as well I will only know if I've truly when I start a new novel length project (and hopefully write a better first draft).

Set yourself clear deadlines, and stick them - that can help with a push!

I think I'll have to start with the 'No looky at Chrons, till you've done a segment' . A bit of a 'carrot' approach. Will have to experiment with deadlines definitely though...

As a piece of personal advice:

F*ck the word count, the pages-per-day, the obsessive checking of how much you have produced. Write your story or stories and be bound by only one rule: 'each week, I will write something'. Be relaxed, have fun. Never stop. When it's done, smile. Then write some thing else for a week or two. Then come back to it and start refining the beast you made.

Honestly Rafellin, that's how I would describe myself. Sort of. There's only been very few days, mainly with the 1st draft, when I stumbled a bit, it's been gravy for the rest of the time. And although I do kinda obsessively check what I've produced, it's not something I worry at all about really (although I might eventually if I can't get this beast cut down in the word count department...) .

I've been writing forever (since primary school). I'd say I was slower now than when I was at school, say. But that's because I have boring adult stuff to do now and not as much time to write any more.

Yep, boring adult stuff always getting in the way, totally agree.

But... Ah, I remember the good days of writing the first where an afternoon of writing would yield another 4,000 words or so. Followed by a week or so of turning it into, you know, sentences and stuff.

Great last line. Actually that's part of the fun for me for re-writing. Coming across a collection of words and thinking 'What the F*** was I on when I wrote that' And then mercifully putting it out of its misery. Oh and purple prose - first the embarrassment of coming across it - but then the greater feeling of relief by removing it so that no one will ever read it.

Eventually you'll get pretty confident that you can put on paper what you want to say. The hardest thing then will be choosing which things you need to say of all those you would like to say. Best to put them all down on paper and weed them out later.

Yes I'm a great believer in just putting stuff down and correcting later. As it's my first novel I think I'm just walking a bit on egg shells and will hopefully get the confidence to be quicker later. We shall see.

I found I definitely grew in both speed and stamina (number of hours I can spend writing). I wasn't pushing for it, it was just a natural result of time spent on my laptop. Like starting out power-walking, learning to jog and then working up to a full marathon.

My novel is more of an ultra-marathon Juliana , but yes I'm hoping I'm getting better at it!

Trying to create a one-liner and insert it into pre-existing text is usually harder than just making it up first time.

And somehow it also has a life of it's own, I find. I find myself re-arranging scenes just to get that pithy one-liner from my protagonist. In fact the whole chapter can go, but the one-liner will go find a place to live somewhere else!




Anyway, I got a bit of a slight wobble yesterday when I stepped back and looked at what I've been producing. When I joined Chrons I had just finished the first chapter of this novel. Research and two years writing made a 200k first draft, I 'took four months off' reading around my genre, then it's been about 5 months so far on this second draft and I'm about 60% through it. So I feel a bit more determined to arrange my life to be a bit faster in my writing. I've got about 7-8 other big novel ideas in the pipeline and if I were to spend, say, 4 years on each...well I suppose that fills up my hobby times for the rest of my life

Thanks for all the responses, always fascinated by other peoples writing processes.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

When I am writing first draft then I can write around 1200 words in 20 minutes. That will need editing or rewriting but it has sentences and is coherent. When I am editing it might be 10 words a day. The beginning is slower than the middle and end.

With me writing scripts to deadlines the formatting slows me down (I'm sure once I remember what goes where and why it won't be so bad) but my writing speed has to be fast or I'd never get the work in and have time to breathe. The work will be changed dramatically from what I first hand in anyway as my imagination needs to be married between cost and what can actually be done.

 

[Venusian Broon]

When I am writing first draft then I can write around 1200 words in 20 minutes. That will need editing or rewriting but it has sentences and is coherent. When I am editing it might be 10 words a day. The beginning is slower than the middle and end.

With me writing scripts to deadlines the formatting slows me down (I'm sure once I remember what goes where and why it won't be so bad) but my writing speed has to be fast or I'd never get the work in and have time to breathe. The work will be changed dramatically from what I first hand in anyway as my imagination needs to be married between cost and what can actually be done.

Yes Anya, I also recognise something of this in my 'method'. Somehow I find it much, much easier to change something that is there on paper. So I do just write, write, write through blank paper moments and the occasional block and bad mood, not really caring if it makes perfect sense or if it really does fit with the rest. (Nowhere near your speed though )

I think Brian has alluded to this in the past, but the analogy I go with is that I'm 'sculpting' with words. First I have to hew out a big block roughly in the shape I want it, then I whittle it down down ever finer and finer.

@DoctorWhat - they say that it takes about a month for a new regime to become a long-term habit. Good to hear that you seem to be well on the way.

 

[Toby Frost]

What are your experiences of your writing speed? Are you now twice, three-times or tens times faster than when you started?

No. I think that I spend less time on each word, but my writing is less self-consciously "arty" than it used to be. I am, however, more confident, both in terms of needing less passes in editing and being less worried about using the wrong words the first time round.

How long did it take you to improve? (I really mean in producing a full novel length work from scratch to a finished state - so that includes re-drafting.)

Either I don't know or I don't think this is really applicable. That is to say, I'm not sure if I have got faster or necessarily much better. At any rate, I've been writing creatively for about 20 years now, on and off. I wouldn't say that it's taken me 20 years to improve, though.

Did you deliberately try and improve your writing speed? Or was it one of those things that just 'fell into place'. And if it was deliberate - was it just deadlines and willpower or did you do anything else?

The first time I wrote to a real deadline, short stories aside, was last year. I wrote a book in 9 months for Black Library (it's called Straken, BTW). I worked out that if I wrote 500 words on each weekday, I would be fine. I did use a few tricks to keep the word count up, most notably dividing the book into important incidents and skipping ahead to the next one whenever I was running low on steam.

At the moment, I am trying to write a 200,000 fantasy novel as quickly as possible. That means, again, doing at least 500 words per day, and preferably more. Because of the multiple storylines, I'm able to jump around without too much difficulty. Plotting is not my strong point, so I have planned it all out rather carefully. Plotting really helps speed up writing for me, because one of my major problems is trying to work out what happens next (or, more accurately, how I fit all the ideas of what happens next together).

Would there be a nice 'optimum' time to write a 100k (or thereabouts) novel from scratch?

A year, perhaps? That is, assuming that you had nothing else very heavy to do at the same time. I'm not sure how slowly I could write a book before I lose impetus.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I write every day that my ME allows me to. When it doesn't I procrastinate.

My writing speed at that stage is basically determined by my typing speed. Sometimes it will be slower, very occasionally quicker.

I produced my first novel quite by accident so it happened very quickly, but I rewrote it 12 times which took about three years. I can now write one to completion in about 4 months as longs as my ME doesn't topple me. (I now only need 3ish rewrites from scratch)

I've produced about a quarter of a sit-com in about 3 months which is only 45 pages long so that tells you how much slower that is going.

 

[DoctorWhat]

Thanks VB - I'm temporarily ignoring the fact that it is probably all a pile of cack - at least the words are mounting up at this stage .

Blank page-blank mind
Ah words -chain words together
words make sentences- chain sentences together
Sentences make paragraph- enough of those makes a page
Many pages make a chapter.

I particularly love this as well. Here's hoping some of mine makes sense eventually too!

 

[FibonacciEddie]

Hey VB

Firstly, I agree with Brian T. set yourself goals.

I will just add some of my stats... I am fairly nerdy so have actual figures to hand...

This was for my first novel; I was writing in the nights/weekends... with a few weeks off etc.

In all these cases... I have stated "hours per words"; you can assume an additional effort for "tidying my desk", "sharpening my pencils", "checking the weather"

Drafts 1,2,3 and 4 were all written in a room with ZERO internet access.

1st Draft
Started early-2013
I wrote 70,000 words at about 500 words per hour
With no more than 4 hours creative writing per day
Finished in Jun 2013

2nd Draft
Started July 2013
I probably changed/added 35,000 words... at about 500 words per hour; and no more than 4 hours creative writing per day
Finished in Sep 2013
Final word count 90,000
Sent for 1st Reader/Beta Reader review... in hindsight, I did this too early

3rd Draft
Major changes resulting from Beta Reader and large stylistic edits (from additional self-study)
Started in December 2013
We can assume that I changed just about every word from the 2nd Draft ... at about 500 words per hour; and no more than 4 hours creative writing per day... plus I added a lot of words
Finished by Mar 2014
Final word count 115,000 words
Sent to formal Editor review.

4th Draft
Started in April 2014 (after getting two sets of feedback from 'real' editors)
I edited/amended every word and finished with a much tighter manuscript of about 85,000 words
The effort was about 1,000 words per hour... mostly cutting... (no more than 4 hours actual work per day)
(Finished by July 2014)
85,000 words
Sent to 2 friends with decent writing pedigree (albeit not actual published authors!)

5th Draft
Started in August 2014
I reviewed every word and made edits on about 20% of the sentences, clearing up POV issues (should have been done earlier), tightening dialogue, turning a few 'tell scenes' into 'show scenes' ... adding texture to some narrative
Final edit... probably at about 2,000 words per hour
Finished in late-Sep 2014
Sent for copy-edit
97,000 words (i added a fair amount when cleaning up some unnecessary 'tell')

573 hours of actual writing... spread over the thick end of 2 years

I would then add about an additional hour of "background investigation/character creating/reading drafts/writing avoidance" for every 2 hours of writing ... so ~860 hours in total

it feels like more