More theological issues

[Mirannan]

Wasn't sure where to put this, because it relates to some stuff I'm working on. Anyway, assuming I'm posting in the right place:

Postulate a situation in which a Catholic priest (in good standing) is confronted with a genuine angel in physical form, with fairly unmistakable evidence that this is actually what's happening. (For a bonus question, consider the situation with said priest meeting a metaphysical being of similar rank from another mythos altogether; perhaps a deva or some such.)

I'm talking about the Catholic situation because (AFAIK) the Catholic church is the one that has a hierarchical approach to things. So; who outranks whom in this situation, and does it matter what rank the angel is? (Cursory investigation reveals belief by Catholics in an angelic hierarchy.) Given that (again AFAIK) the conventional position is that supernatural beings such as this are agents of divine purpose with no real free will and that humans are the only beings with free will...

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

Your notion that angels have no free will is actually a concept that better fits Islam than Christianity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

Islam is clear on the nature of angels in that they are messengers of God. They have no free will, and can do only what God orders them to do.

On the contrary, Christianity generally teaches that it is possible for angels to choose to sin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_angel

In Catholicism, the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks of "the fall of the angels" not in spatial terms but as a radical and irrevocable rejection of God and his reign by some angels who, though created as good beings, freely chose evil, their sin being unforgivable because of the irrevocable character of their choice, not because of any defect in the infinite divine mercy.

Here's some information on the various "ranks" of angels in Christian theology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy

The three "spheres" would seem to be more a designation of duties rather than a strict hierarchy.

In any case, it would seem logical that any human being would think of an angel as a superior being. ("Man is a little lower than the angels" and so on.) On the other hand, human beings have free will, so one may not choose to act as a subordinate to an angel, depending on the psychology of your character.

As for the question about a devout Catholic confronting a non-Christian supernatural being, that would also depend on your character's psychology. Maybe it would lead to a crisis of faith. Maybe the being would be seen as demonic in disguise. Maybe it would be accepted as part of a vaster theological system ("My Father's house has many mansions" and all that.)

 

[Dave]

Research has identified the parts of the brain that are responsible for generating invisible apparitions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29939672

 

[Parson]

Victoria has summarized the answer to this question extraordinarily well. I would surmise that a Catholic priest confronted with a spiritual being other than an angel, would immediately assume it was a demon. Just like Victoria said, however, her Biblical quote has to do with the room for humans in heaven and has nothing to do with angels. (And a better translation would be "In my Father's house there are many rooms...") "Mansions" is not a translation from the Greek, but a misunderstanding of the Latin word.

 

[Mirannan]

Research has identified the parts of the brain that are responsible for generating invisible apparitions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29939672

Sure. However, this is for potential use in a work of fiction. Urban fantasy, in fact.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I would surmise that a Catholic priest confronted with a spiritual being other than an angel, would immediately assume it was a demon.

Most Evangelicals too, maybe more so!
Some Evangelicals think Frank Peretti books are documentaries! Such as "This present darkness"
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/5544.Frank_E_Peretti

 

[The Judge]

Mirannan, as this is a query relating to your fiction, I think it would be fine in GWD, so I'll move it over there.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

So many factors to consider and so many possible answers. It depends I suppose is the best answer Ican give but not what you want to hear. But ask yourselves these questions: First what is the angel? Are we talking wings and halos and radiating the glory of god - in which case I would expect the priest like most men to fall down in wonder and awe. Or are we talking something that seems more human? What about the world? Is this a world where angels appear on a regular basis? Or is this an unparalleled event which will completely shatter a man's psyche? And then what about the priest? Is he a man who has fallen into temptation and on the verge of failing his vows? Or is he a staunch believer?

As to the man instantly labelling said angel as a demon, that seems unlikely to me. Every text in the bible covering encounters with angels talks about the wonder of seeing them. The fallen angels are mostly in books like Revelations.

One other thing, the hiererchies of angels as I recall were created by Dionysius in the middle ages. They are a vision etc based on biblical reference - mostly New Testament - but they are not for the most part not official Catholic dogma. (Not being Catholic I'd say take that last with a grain of salt.) There are several other hierarchies, his is just the best known. And of course how would you know if an angel was an archangel, or one of the powers or the thrones etc? Do they wear name tags?

Personally the best depiction of an angel ever in my humble opinion is the one in Stephen Donaldson's "Unworthy of the Angel". I'd suggest reading that to give you some ideas.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[HareBrain]

There's a story that Satan rebelled because he refused to bow down and worship Adam as God instructed him to. I don't know how "official" that story is, or whether it belongs to Christianity or Islam, but it suggests that humans outrank angels in some traditions at least.

 

[Parson]

There's a story that Satan rebelled because he refused to bow down and worship Adam as God instructed him to. I don't know how "official" that story is, or whether it belongs to Christianity or Islam, but it suggests that humans outrank angels in some traditions at least.

I can't say if the story is from Islam, or some Jewish myth (which could be because ancient Judaism had a lot of angelic stories which the Bible sometimes references obtusely as in Jude). But I can say this is nothing in Christianity.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Wasn't sure where to put this, because it relates to some stuff I'm working on. Anyway, assuming I'm posting in the right place:

Postulate a situation in which a Catholic priest (in good standing) is confronted with a genuine angel in physical form, with fairly unmistakable evidence that this is actually what's happening. (For a bonus question, consider the situation with said priest meeting a metaphysical being of similar rank from another mythos altogether; perhaps a deva or some such.)

I'm talking about the Catholic situation because (AFAIK) the Catholic church is the one that has a hierarchical approach to things. So; who outranks whom in this situation, and does it matter what rank the angel is? (Cursory investigation reveals belief by Catholics in an angelic hierarchy.) Given that (again AFAIK) the conventional position is that supernatural beings such as this are agents of divine purpose with no real free will and that humans are the only beings with free will...

Something you may need to consider is which religious view of angels you wish to base your ideas on. For example, in Judaism, angels are indistinguishable from humans - something we see in the Old Testament/Tanakh. There's also a massive amount of lore on angels within the Jewish tradition, not least from the Book of Enoch, and ideas of magic from the Kabbalah/Qabbalah.

The Christian idea of angels is significantly different to Jewish ones. The visual imagery of human figures with wings and halos actually comes from Greek pagan art. Also, I've struggled to find Christians who knew much about angels, probably because most of their mythology is considered 'occult'.

If you want a definitive answer, I'd strongly recommend asking about this on the Interfaith.org forums, because I know there are some Catholic heavyweights on there who could give a very precise answer of what a Catholic Priest's expectations - from a doctrinal point of view - could be presumed. However, if we're talking about an emotive situation, then obviously the human reaction is unlikely to be an entirely intellectual one.

 

[Mirannan]

psychotick - You've asked most of the questions. The being isn't actually an angel at all, but a different class of supernatural altogether which might nevertheless be mistaken as a Christian angel. A valkyrie, in fact. (Not in the normal uniform, BTW.) The priest in question is one who hasn't broken his vows, but his faith has degenerated into a matter of boring routine and mouthing words in which he only half-believes.

The world is 21st Century Earth, the UK in particular. And the meeting is initially in his church, with someone who looks like a normal (if rather tall and beautiful) woman but suddenly goes into "glowing with divine power" mode (and also demigod-level powers of command) and then proceeds to mind-ream him - a process which he feels happening. Oh, and he is explicitly told by the being herself that she is no angel.

I think such an event would turn him into a gibbering wreck, at least temporarily. Which is the way I've written it, so far.

BTW, I'm not really after accurate doctrine; just something that seems reasonable in the context of the story.

 

[tinkerdan]

Having been born a Catholic and raised as such for the first 18 years of my life I'd have to agree with Brian because[unless things have changed a lot in the last 40 years]the common churchgoer might not know enough to concisely answer this, though perhaps I just wasn't studious enough. I do know; that for those 18 years we were allowed to own a bible if it was blessed by the church and it had to be the Catholic bible with all the Apocrypha and there was no real encouragement to read outside of our Saturday classes[although it might have been different for those going to the Catholic school]. Emphasis was on what the nuns would teach. Mass was all done in Latin and I didn't have access to that language until I was in college. My parents were both Catholic, but obviously not that strong in the faith and that might have reduced my comprehension.

Based on what you just said above and if there are enough Catholic's out there with similar experience to mine, it might not make that much difference to those readers.

As to Angels; I'm not sure how I would have pictured them, but I was certain I'd never see them here on earth. Some would say that I wouldn't, because I didn't have enough faith; but I had an absolute faith that I wouldn't see them.

I should probably amend that earlier capricious statement about it not making a difference. There are many things I've discovered while studying other religions that are not common knowledge and even though they are a part of a faith you can easily find yourself in an argument with someone who is of that faith who says it isn't so.

So far I have been lucky and both times the people have gone off and asked someone else in their faith and then come to apologize for unloading on me.

 

[Venusian Broon]

There's a story that Satan rebelled because he refused to bow down and worship Adam as God instructed him to. I don't know how "official" that story is, or whether it belongs to Christianity or Islam, but it suggests that humans outrank angels in some traditions at least.

It's definitely not in mainstream Christianity, I believe in some far out Gnostic texts this is considered - because Satan was made of fire, Adam merely out of clay he refused to bow to this new mud creation (but there are a very large number of differing Gnostic views.) However if you identify the serpent as Satan, as many did and do, then it can be been argued that Satan must have already fallen before Adam was created. (Who or what the serpent was is not really a question for this forum I guess, so I'm going to leave it at that.)

The Christian idea of angels is significantly different to Jewish ones. The visual imagery of human figures with wings and halos actually comes from Greek pagan art. Also, I've struggled to find Christians who knew much about angels, probably because most of their mythology is considered 'occult'.

A lot of the Jewish imagery for angels comes from a lot of older Near Eastern mythology sources. Think of those Chimera - lions bodies, bearded men's heads and wings.

Catholics must believe in angels. The Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 declared the existence of these invisible spirits as dogma (actually the whole show: angels, demons and Satan). Vatican Council I in 1870 also backed this up (and at the same time defined as dogma the doctrine of papal infallibility so now it's a bit tortuous trying to put the genie back in the bottle so to speak, it's just true...) Also, Pope Pius XII (1939-58) declared that angels must be regarded as "personal beings," not vague spiritual beings. So that's true now as well for a Catholic, whatever that means.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Mind reaming? Whatever it is it doesn't sound like fun. But probably the key thing is that if she doesn't claim to be an angel, and then does something nasty to his mind, then I can see your priest quickly changing his view from one of agog wonder to one of screaming horror.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Mirannan]

psychotick - Just to be clear, what she does to his mind is simply read it - very thoroughly. Which fits; after all, how else does one of the choosers of the slain choose?

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Oh, and he is explicitly told by the being herself that she is no angel.

I think most of the priests I have known well, (a curious statement as neither I nor my Wife are Catholics) would be seriously inclined to believe her. After the gibbering has stopped and they have had a cup of tea/coffee/whiskey.
Most better biblically educated Catholics and Evangelicals would NOT expect Angels to be having Wings, or White Robes. (That is probably mediaeval and the winged creatures in Bible are usually Cherubs and Seraphs (Plural in hebrew adds -im or -ot) which are not Angels.)
The Angels that Lot and Abraham meet look like Humans. The angels that Mary and Joseph meet are not specifically described.

There is a lot of "new age" inspired non-Christian Angelology about, esp. here.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

choosers of the slain

My Earth Starships are named after Valkyries and are "Valkyrie" class
Val is from "Carrion"
Kyrie is from same root word as English "Choose"

Hence "Choosers of the Slain". Wagner's names are made up from pairs of German roots. But there are loads of Nordic/Icelandic names.

Valkyries named by Wagner
Gerhilde (soprano)
Helmvige (soprano)
Ortlinde (soprano)
Waltraute (mezzosoprano)
Rossweisse (mezzosoprano)
Seigrune (contralto)
Grimgerde (mezzosoprano)
Schwertleite (mezzosoprano).
Brunnhilde (soprano).

Gerhilde*
Ger «spear» – Hild «battle»
Helmwige
Helm «helmet» – Wig «war»
Waltraute
Wald «rule» – Thrud «strength»
Ortlinde
Ort «point» – Linde «gentle, soft»
Siegrune
Sigu «victory» – Run «secret»
Roßweiße*
Ross «steed» – Weiss «white»
Grimgerde
Grim «mask» – Garthr «enclosure»
Schwertleite
Schwert «sword» – Leiter «leader»?
*In the original prose sketch for Die Walküre, Wagner gave these names as Geerhilde and Roßwilde.

From two sources

From other sources

The word Valkyrie itself means "chooser of the slain", from val "carrion" (Valhalla means "hall of the slain") and kyrja "chooser". The word kyrja is related to the archaic and poetic German word kiesen, "to select", which Wagner uses frequently throughout the opera, and the Anglo-Saxon word ceosan, whence comes English choose.

Valkyries’ Names and Their Meanings

• Brynhildr: “Bright Battle,” “Byrnie of Battle,” or “Mail-Coat of Battle”
• Eir: “Clemency,” “Help,” “Mercy” or “Peace”
• Friagabi: “Giver of Freedom”
• Geirahöð or Geirahöd: “Spear-Battle,” or “Spear of Battle”
• Geiravör: “Spear-Vör”
• Geirdriful: “Spear-Flinger”
• Geirönul, Geirrönul, Geirömul, or Geirölul: “The One Charging Forth With the Spear”
• Geirskögul: “Spear-Skögul” (see Skögul below)
• Göll: “Battle,” “Battle Cry,” “Loud Cry,” “Noise,” or “Tumult”
• Göndul: “Enchanted Stave,” “Magic Wand,” “She-Were-Wolf,” or “Wand-Wielder”
• Grimhildr: “Mask” or “Helm of Battle”
• Guðr or Gunnr: “Battle” or “War”
• Herfjötur: “Fetter of the Army,” “Host-Fetter,” or “War-Fetter”
• Herja: “Devastate”
• Hervör Alvitr: “Hervör All-Wise,” or “Hervör Strange-Creature”
• Hilda or Hildr: “Battle”
• Hildeberg: “Battle Fortress”
• Hildegund: “Battle War”
• Hjalmþrimul: “Female Warrior” or “Helmet Clatterer”
• Hjörþrimul: “The Sword Warrioress”
• Hlaðguðr Svanhvít: “Hlaðguðr Swan-White”
• Hlökk: “Battle,” “Din of Battle,” or “Noise”
• Hrist: “The Quaking One” or “The Shaker”
• Hrund: “Pricker”
• Kára: “The Curly One,” “The Stormy One,” or “The Wild”
• Kreimhildr: Signification unknown
• Mist: “Cloud,” “Fog,” or “Mist”
• Ölrún: “Ale-Rune”
• Raðgrðr or Ráðgriðr: “Counsel of Peace,” “Council-Truce,” “Gods’ Peace,” or “The Bossy”
• Randgriðr or Rangrid: “Shield-Destroyer,” “Shield of Peace,” or “Shield-Truce”
• Reginleif: “Daughter of the Gods,” “Heritage of the Gods,” or “Power-Trace”
• Róta: “She Who Causes Turmoil” or “Sleet and Storm”
• Sanngriðr: “Very Cruel” or “Very Violent”
• Sigrdrífa or Sigrdrifa: “Inciter to Victory,” “Victory Blizzard,” or “Victory-Urger”
• Sigrún: “Victory Rune”
• Skamöld: “Sword-Time”
• Skeggöld or Skeggjöld: “Axe-Age” or “Wearing a War Axe”
• Skögul: “Battle,” “High-Towering,” “Rager,” or “Shaker”
• Skuld: “Debt,” “Future” or “She Who Is Becoming”
• Sváva: Signification unknown
• Sveið: “Noise” or “Vibration”
• Svipul: “Changeable”
• Þögn: “Silence”
• Þrima: “Fight”
• Þrúðr: “Power” or “Strength”

Project Gutenberg has a 1921 recording of the "ride of the valkyrie" available to freely download.

 

[Venusian Broon]

(That is probably mediaeval and the winged creatures in Bible are usually Cherubs and Seraphs (Plural in hebrew adds -im or -ot) which are not Angels.)
The Angels that Lot and Abraham meet look like Humans. The angels that Mary and Joseph meet are not specifically described.

There is a lot of "new age" inspired non-Christian Angelology about, esp. here.

Sorry Ray, not true. Angels are winged (what better for making the trip between heaven and earth). And Cherubim and Seraphim are angels from the Hebrew scriptures which Christianity and Islam then borrowed when making their own 'angel theology'. In early Christian art, the cherub is modestly draped in red cloth. A little later, its image is that of a chubby, rose-cheeked tot with two dainty, downy wings. In later Christian art, cherubium sport four wings and are painted pale blue to symoblise the sky, whereas the six-winged seraphim are red to represent fire. Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite spent a lot of time and effort in making a Christian heirarchy of angels (three tiers of three ranks), Serpahim are top, Cherubim next etc... Archangels and angels (because their ministry is on Earth) are the two at the bottom.

Yes in many instances the description of the angel is not given - Mathew (1:20) an angel is used to assure Joseph that Mary has not slept around and appears in a dream - one would imagine that Joseph would therefore see a winged messenger in his dream, after all how does he know its an angel?

As for the beings that visit Lot and Abraham, in fact no description is given of them at all - we have no idea what they looked like. In Chapter 18 Genesis, Abraham recognises the Lord (the other two in the Lords party are given as men only). When two angels appear at Sodom (presumably the Lord's travelling companions), Lot instantly recognises them as angelic (Perhaps as being the only one worth saving, he sees the wings.) But the purpose of this visit was for the Lord to see how wicked Sodom and Gomorrah were - presumably then his angels are in disguise to see how these wicked men and women truly behave. After all he is the Lord, he can do anything he wants, I suppose.

 

[HareBrain]

whereas the six-winged seraphim are red to represent fire.

Somewhat OT (sorry OP!) but I've seen the seraphim referred to (but without a source mentioned) as "fiery serpents", which seems odd, given the Biblical association of serpents and dragons with evil. It is, however, relevant to my WIP, so I'm wondering if you can shed any light on this, since you clearly know quite a bit?