Smithing Techniques

[stygianelectro]

I have a magical material that can only be forged with a certain technique. I'm having trouble coming up with a somewhat-original idea for this, and I want to know what you guys have to say about it. Go!

 

[Ray McCarthy]

You don't want the folding thing* where the Japanese** put a core in an wrap combining two materials?
You need a certain temperature. Perhaps hotter than normal so a water wheel driven fan on charcoal to get more heat.
Then maybe some special liquid for the quenching to temper it (oil is sometimes used today instead of water). Perhaps the blood of a magical toad or something?


(* the two part thing is FAR down the reference

The legitimate Japanese sword is made from Japanese steel "Tamahagane".[31] The most common lamination method the Japanese sword blade is formed from is a combination of two different steels: a harder outer jacket of steel wrapped around a softer inner core of steel.[32] This creates a blade which has a hard, razor sharp cutting edge with the ability to absorb shock in a way which reduces the possibility of the blade breaking when used in combat. The hadagane, for the outer skin of the blade, is produced by heating a block of raw steel, which is then hammered out into a bar, and the flexible back portion. This is then cooled and broken up into smaller blocks which are checked for further impurities and then reassembled and reforged. During this process the billet of steel is heated and hammered, split and folded back upon itself many times and re-welded to create a complex structure of many thousands of layers. Each different steel is folded differently, in order to provide the necessary strength and flexibility to the different steels.[33][34][35] The precise way in which the steel is folded, hammered and re-welded determines the distinctive grain pattern of the blade, the jihada, (also called jigane when referring to the actual surface of the steel blade) a feature which is indicative of the period, place of manufacture and actual maker of the blade. The practice of folding also ensures a somewhat more homogeneous product, with the carbon in the steel being evenly distributed and the steel having no voids that could lead to fractures and failure of the blade in combat.

)
(**There is Damascus Steel, which isn't a technique but a special alloy. Possibly by accident due to where ore came from but Japan was pretty mad about swords)

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Take time to read the entire Japanese Wikipedia article. It may spark an idea.
Charcoal + high pressure air can give very high temperatures.
See also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace
Quenching in mysterious waxes / liquids may do more than simply adjust temper
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quenching
It can be very complicated.
They claim

Experience shows that olive oil is particularly efficient as a good quench.

Which I didn't know. I've only seen mineral oil used.
I've no idea as to the properties of Hydra, Medusa, Unicorn, Griffin, Sphinx blood, or other bodily fluids in making magical blades as they are not in my catalogues.
Someone was selling tinned Unicorn. But it turned out to be Corned beef mixed with cake sparkles and re-canned.

you can even use molten lead bath* in Step Quenching before you use the Olive oil or magic snake oil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martempering

(*You'd not want splashed. I got splashed in the face very slightly from a very small solder bath 60/40 tin/lead and the burns took about x3 the normal time to heal due to the lead!)

 

[paranoid marvin]

If its magical then the world is your oyster. How about a musical theme, where the 'smith' fashions a blade by singing to it? Thin,reedy notes for a narrow, rapier type blade for example.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

My first Novel had a section where a special sword was forged by two gifted people. The techniques I described were based on the Japanese system Ray refers to above but one of the people, a smith, found even with magic the sword lacked the properties it needed. When the second person joined their gift to his the sword was finally complete.
Since my novel included time travel I was able to cheat slightly by manipulating time and compact a very long process into a few days.
I struggled for ages to come up with a 'missing ingredient' for my sword to make it special and I'm not entirely certain my solution worked. I haven't got that far into the rewrite yet so it's possible the whole thing will change next time round. I'll watch this thread with interest to see what you decide on so I can make sure I don't duplicate your plot!

 

[Brian G Turner]

I have a magical material that can only be forged with a certain technique. I'm having trouble coming up with a somewhat-original idea for this, and I want to know what you guys have to say about it. Go!

Presuming this magical material is not a common metal or alloy, then wouldn't you need a unique ore to provide it?

Otherwise, for smithing, the greater the heat of the forge, and the required 'impurities', make forged metal unique. The former can require more intensive labour or mechanisation (ie, water mill) and the latter can either have the right balance of ore in the impurities or else introduced during the process.

However, if you're looking to apply practical magic, then prayers/offerings/spellcasting during the forging process itself will give you whatever fictional result you want.

 

[Dinosaur]

How about the process can only be carried out by certain people, say women in the last month of pregnancy, the younger of non identical twins, childless widower who have been married twice.it's just general metal work unless carried by one of these people.

 

[stygianelectro]

It's a crystalline material called an Aerolith.
It can be used to create powerful magical items, but can only be forged in a certain way, as it's not very malleable.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

women in the last month of pregnancy,

I know some get the urge then to do unlikely things like painting the walls etc ... But forging?
It's HOT, heavy, exhausting work ...

 

[Dinosaur]

I know some get the urge then to do unlikely things like painting the walls etc ... But forging?
It's HOT, heavy, exhausting work ...

So by default incredibly rare, after all who would experiment on magic and include that group?

 

[abraves247]

What if it has to be done in a certain location, like a "forged in the heart of Mount Doom" type of thing?

 

[Mirannan]

With a hat-tip to various Frankenstein movies, how about melting down the metal for casting using channeled lightning bolts? This sounds suitably difficult and time-dependent for a magical procedure. Including huge and highly impractical machinery, hunchbacked assistants and highly suspicious locals, natch.

 

[chrispenycate]

Damascus steel, as I remember it, is largely a question of the tempering. Instead of quenching in water, which is fast because of the high specific heat of vaporisation, or oil which cools thing much slower, they thrust the yellow-hot blade through a human body, originally a living one as they believed the man's soul went into the blade and strengthened it. Actually, using low carbon steel, the carbon from the blood etc. case hardened the blade. Interior soft iron, like the Japanese blade, and hard, flexible outer shell. With time they discovered that you could run several blades through one slave, with considerable economy of scale, then that it wasn't important the guy be alive, or even human, which somewhat lowers the mystique.

But trace elements can make enormous differences to the characteristics of steel, and appear in certain ores, not measurable by chemical analysis of the time but recognised by the knowledgable smith.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Chrispenycate, I read an article on Damascus steel a little while ago. Apparently, vanadium impurities were a key factor in its renown strength.

Only a small section in the story, but here it is (I copied the link in case I wanted to use something similar in my writing):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27829874

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Re: Damascus steel

Apparently, vanadium impurities were a key factor in its renown strength.

I'd forgotten which it was, but I did mention earlier it was the nature of the Alloy, not the forging process. Vanadium is used in steel for many tools today. I've always thought that myths of 'magical swords' from much earlier times are accidental (or secret) production of steel rather than Iron. Almost any steel sword will either shatter or cut an iron sword (Think what cast iron and wrought iron are like).

Mythological connection created by naming of the element as Vanadium
Vanadis is one of the names of Freyja (Freya)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Freyja
There is some confusion between Frig (the source of Friday) and Freyja (apparent source of Friday in Scandinavia)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigg_and_Freyja_origin_hypothesis
All fascinating stuff for anyone having Norse Mythology in their writing, though the naming of the 'magic' ingredient in Damascus Steel after a God is a modern irony.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Oh, and, for the story (ahem), the 'special forging' could just be using rare metal from a seam that's almost entirely exhausted.

 

[Venusian Broon]

If your magic material is crystalline and not malleable, then instead of forging proper perhaps you are looking at a process a bit like glass making.

A furnace of some kind (covered with the proper incantations and fed with the correct mixtures of sacred materials) is put up to some amazing heat (i.e. higher melting point than glass of course - got to make this process difficult) and then when your areolith is ready the master glasssmith somehow manipulates the semi-molten material into the desired shape. No idea how difficult it would be to use a glass making process to construct a sword say, but a quick look about the internet seems to suggest that 1) there are glass swords out there 2) People seem reasonably confident they could be made.

If you want to increase the rarity of these objects then say 1) Aerolith is rare anyway 2) the process of making the object is very delicate and there is a great chance of flaws developing and rendering these objects as brittle in some manner...

Just some thoughts.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I've always thought that myths of 'magical swords' from much earlier times are accidental (or secret) production of steel rather than Iron.

Certainly true of some of the Saxons and Vikings, who also imported the same high-quality iron ore from India via Damascus. However, the process of creating a high-quality sword always seemed to have been perceived as like a mystical experience - turning rock into a living, named blade.

It's a crystalline material called an Aerolith.

Just to warn you, "Aerolith" is already a word for describing a meteorite. And weapons forged from meteorite iron are already known - Tutankhamen's riches included a khepesh - an Egytpian curved-sword - that was forged from meteoric iron.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Just to warn you, "Aerolith" is already a word for describing a meteorite. And weapons forged from meteorite iron are already known - Tutankhamen's riches included a khepesh - an Egytpian curved-sword - that was forged from meteoric iron.

Depends also on what cosmology you are holding as true as well I suppose Brian, if Stygians universe has aether like the classical definition i.e. that was supposed to fill the universe above the terrestrial sphere, then if any bits of it fell to earth it too would be by definition areolith. (air - stone is it?). Plus in that universe where would the iron rich meteorites come from???

But I agree it cause confusion to those that know, perhaps substitute another word for areo? The sumerian for sky or heaven was An, so Anlith?

 

[goldhawk]

A video from Awe Me on making a meteorite sword: Sokka Sword.