Is this medical procedure plausible?

[MatterSack]

Okay, AFAIK this procedure (with the aid of futuristic technologies) is physiologically sound... but I'm not sure if it's actually plausible. I'm not sure if a future society would actually tolerate it for ethical/squeamish/financial reasons.



In my universe, people can be transplanted into an android body when killed. And by that, I mean their brains are.


In order to save a person in such a manner, you need to:

1. Get to them fast (before neurodegeneration results in permanent brain-death).
2. Preserve their brain via flash-freezing.

And to do that...

You need to decapitate them on site.

Once removed, their head is placed in a cryogenic box by specialised medics, and carried to a hospital.


Is this something that could realistically happen in everyday society? It raises some interesting conundrums that I plan to explore: i.e., the gruesome nature of the procedure vs. the human lives it saves.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Just off the top of my head Alastair Reynolds does this in Redemption Ark - oh and I'm sure Iain M. Banks also has a headless moment in Use of Weapons. But Culture and Revelation Space science is, I assume, more advanced.

As for if it is actually plausible...well they have found all sorts of microbial things can spring back to life after being frozen, so possibly the cells of the brain could all be brought back (carefully I assume), but its what happens to the 'mind' is that I'd guess no one has an idea about right now, as we just not clear on how it works. Is it just like a computer - so if you switch if off (by freezing all neural activity) then on again, does the mind just spring back into existence with the same old memories etc...? Or is the mind such an intricate state that it would almost impossible to restart it properly? I'd personally go for the second one and make it difficult with a bit of damage, but then that's me!

Just some question that spring to mind - if you can attach a brain to an android and make it interact...why can't you not attach a brain to real human body? (or a cloned one, say, that is being kept on ice for such occasions?) And if they can do that and the android body is better than the human body - why don't they convert all their recruits into androids, store the bodies, then they are given their old 'young' bodies back at the end of their term of service.

 

[Locrian]

Sounds plausible, so long as the brain is put on ice pretty quick. Might want to take the spinal cord as well if possible, a lot of your reflexes and "muscle memory" are controlled by the spinal cord, the kind of thing that soldiers will want in their new android body. Less of an issue for every day deaths, but people could do this ahead of time with terminal illnesses and such. As for societal issues, that depends on the society.

One point against simply downloading the brain, is the question of which one would you be? Would you die and the copy would carry on with your memories, or would it be a continuation of your own conciousness? The copy would have all of your memories and personality so it wouldnt know either way. If you can't guarantee it as a way to extend your own lifespan rather than leaving a copy, what's the point?

 

[Brian G Turner]

Or why not simply download the consciousness, rather than the messy business of detaching and reattaching a brain? Still, it would certainly make for a startling turn of events!

 

[Venusian Broon]

Or why not simply download the consciousness, rather than the messy business of detaching and reattaching a brain? Still, it would certainly make for a startling turn of events!

Ah see if you could do that, then why not just download your consciousness into an android and let that do the fighting. No need for any humans to be killed!

 

[HareBrain]

Or why not simply download the consciousness

Problem with this (apart from getting into downloadable form something we don't even remotely understand): if you can download it into one android or other body, you can download it into two. Where then does the "I" reside? If your consciousness is copied into two or more bodies, through whose eyes do "you" see?

In other words, I dispute your "simply"

 

[MatterSack]

As for if it is actually plausible...well they have found all sorts of microbial things can spring back to life after being frozen, so possibly the cells of the brain could all be brought back (carefully I assume), but its what happens to the 'mind' is that I'd guess no one has an idea about right now, as we just not clear on how it works.

Certain frogs possess a cryoprotectant/surfactant in their blood that enables them to be frozen completely solid! IIRC the only real problem with human neuropreservation is the (currently irreversible) tissue damage caused by cryoprotectants and water crystallisation.

if you can attach a brain to an android and make it interact...why can't you not attach a brain to real human body? (or a cloned one, say, that is being kept on ice for such occasions?)

Android bodies can be mass-produced by existing companies, are more durable, don't need special (damaging!) cryonic storage or thawing before use, etc. May change though (particularly for people with special insurance or such).

And if they can do that and the android body is better than the human body - why don't they convert all their recruits into androids, store the bodies, then they are given their old 'young' bodies back at the end of their term of service.

Bit convoluted to explain here, but... suffice to say that organics and non-organics have their own pros and cons in the setting.

Might want to take the spinal cord as well if possible, a lot of your reflexes and "muscle memory" are controlled by the spinal cord

I know that reflexes are, but pretty sure that motor skill is controlled entirely by the cerebellum and thalamus. Medics are trained to sever the spinal cord below the brainstem to make sure all the 'subjective' stuff is preserved.

Or why not simply download the consciousness, rather than the messy business of detaching and reattaching a brain?

The old teleportation conundrum (which Locrian touched upon). Are you really the same person afterwards?

 

[MatterSack]

To be honest, I'm more worried about the sociological ramifications (person dies of cardiac arrest amidst a street full of people, and is publicly decapitated).

 

[Venusian Broon]

To be honest, I'm more worried about the sociological ramifications (person dies of cardiac arrest amidst a street full of people, and is publicly decapitated).

Can't they put a screen up or do it in an ambulance. Or are you imagining lots of 'emergency cryo-units' put in place so that the public can do it immediately? (Mind you if there were lots of devices at hand that produced liquid nitrogen temperatures maybe the public would use them to make ice cream Heston-style when the weather was hot! )

 

[HareBrain]

One point against simply downloading the brain, is the question of which one would you be? Would you die and the copy would carry on with your memories, or would it be a continuation of your own conciousness? The copy would have all of your memories and personality so it wouldnt know either way. If you can't guarantee it as a way to extend your own lifespan rather than leaving a copy, what's the point?

Apologies for missing this when I replied above. (Also apologies if this is slightly OT.)

It's clear to me that transferring the consciousness alone would not result in a continuation of the same entity: you just create a copy with the same memories etc. So (as you say) the new version thinks it's the same as before, but the old version still ceases to exist. You can demonstrate this by thinking what would happen if you created a copy while the first was still alive -- the original consciousness cannot exist through two bodies at once. It exists through the original body. Then, if that body dies, the original consciousness ceases to exist -- the copy still exists, but the consciousness of the original does not suddenly transfer into it.

What happens is you transfer the brain, though, I'm less sure about. I think this would be a way to maintain the same consciousness, if it could be done.

 

[Brian G Turner]

The reason I mentioned about downloading consciousness, is that this has been talked about - by Bill Gates, I believe - as something that may be possible in our lifetime. However, it was just a thought for consideration. I can see the story appeal of the messy version.

 

[MatterSack]

How exactly would a consciousness be translocated? Some kind of super-advanced (and super-invasive) brain-computer interface I imagine.

And yeah, the 'heads off' approach is extremely dramatic... especially since my protagonist is a medic!

Can't they put a screen up or do it in an ambulance. Or are you imagining lots of 'emergency cryo-units' put in place so that the public can do it immediately?

I can't believe I didn't think of a simple screen. Followed by bodybag, collection, etc.

The idea is that these cryonic units (the size of a small esky) are dispersed around the place like fire extinguishers. Around a third of the populace is trained in first aid (for reasons) and has the authority to break them out, as do police, military personnel, advanced medical practitioners, etc.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Problem with this (apart from getting into downloadable form something we don't even remotely understand): if you can download it into one android or other body, you can download it into two. Where then does the "I" reside? If your consciousness is copied into two or more bodies, through whose eyes do "you" see?

In other words, I dispute your "simply"

Indeed "downloading" may be forever Fantasy, but transplanting a head is possible. Transplanting a brain into a life support machine (cf Anne McCaffery Ship stories, see Ship who Sang) is plausible. But you need a lot more than oxygenated blood. Hormones and stuff. Not impossible. A mk1 might be a life support machine in a hospital with a remote mechanical avatar, it would have autonomous processes (computers with sensors) and the remains of the person on life support would have to learn how to see, touch, hear, smell, taste and move, even though the sensors and controls would be processed to be as close as possible to biological ones. If the "link" is reliable and of course option for different "skinning" on the chassis, why would you want the riskier "brain" inside the "box"?

Android suggests a biological construct. This would only be of value if they were genetic engineered and then sexually reproduced, but zero ability to interact, a sort of mammal like vegetable that can then be utilised for a brain. Perhaps based on the brain's DNA and forced growth in 1 to 3 years to adult size (a sort of replicant with primitive autonomous nervous system) during which the brain to be "installed" is kept in a coma on life support.

Perhaps a Brain is only a biological interface to the real you, so any copy of the structure or memories (even if ever possible!) might only be a non-sentient recording.

Certainly plausible to keep a brain alive (not today, but maybe some day) without the original body. Making a copy / backup / download of contents to have a working "person" in something else requires faith/imagination/suspension of disbelief as we have no inkling how this might be done. We can't keep a disembodied brain alive today, but I think it's broadly understood what bio-technology life support systems and synthetic hormones etc needed. Synthetic blood is also a likely route in the future. Cat heads have been transplanted with limited success. Repair of severed nerves / spinal cord is starting to see progress with a paralysed man getting some control back by modifying and transplanting some of his own cells to the damaged spinal cord.

We have no idea actually what sentience, intelligence, self awareness etc actually are. We have a limited idea of biological processes in a brain and also though there are maps of brain location vs memories (short and long are different) and functions / senses, curiously some people with tumour surgery, physical injury or strokes "learn" to do the missing function with a different part of the brain. There are all kinds of hormones/chemicals made outside brain that brain needs. Also touch, pain, shivering, facial expressions, walking, reacting, smell, taste, hearing, goosebumps, sexual stimulation, speech, sight, moving & focus of eyes etc isn't simple wiring like computer boards or cars.

Freezing seems to not work with human tissue at all (cell damage), but severe chill with saline replacing most of the blood may work for an hour or so.

 

[ralphkern]

I had a not dissimilar moral conundrum relating to the Real You in my book. (They were teleported as the main means of interstellar travel, and in the process the original body was destroyed and a new one created at the other end). I addressed the idea of the the real you (soul/ID whatever you want to call it) in with an off-page court case (actually a legislative congressional hearing) that was referenced where they got together loads of scientists, religious leaders and philosophers to debate that very question.

As it was background history by the time my actual story gets going, I didn't go into it in any great detail, I just wanted to show that it had been considered.

Fortunately for my story... they came to the conclusion it was okay as the persons soul was transported into the new body

 

[paranoid marvin]

What is the soul, what is consciousness? Where exactly in the body do they reside?

Religious implications aside, there's no reason to suggest that an exact copy of the brain wouldn't also transfer the thoughts/hopes/dreams and memories of the person. We have barely scratched the surface of what the brain is capable of. For all we know, our brains may have the untapped potential to rejuvante aging cells and give us eternal life, or even take us to a higher plain of conciousness.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

First freezing the brain, even flash freezing will do irreperable cell damage. Essentially what happens is that the water in the cells and especially the cell membranes freezes - turns to ice crystals, and these crystals being larger in volume than water and having sharp edges, tend to tear cell membranes apart. At which point the cells die - check out freezer burn in a piece of meat and you'll understand the effect. I wouldn't want to be "resurrected" in this way myself. The chances are that even if it worked the brain damage would be catastrophic. Cryopreservatives as I understand it are actually largely poisonous. They would kill you if you weren't already dead. I'd go for low temperatures but not sub-zero, to minimise this problem, and then operate quickly.

Decapitation is also out. The spinal column contains a hell of a lot of control systems and is intimately linked to the brain. There is a reason that people who suffer traumatic injury to their spinal columns often die of suffocation. I wouldn't do that either. I'd keep the entire central nervous system intact. What you need is a way of separating this from the rest of the body, and I'd say that the best way to do it would be some sort of chemical bath that dissolves the skin etc but not the nerve tissue. Don't know anything that would do this by the way.

Last you need to be able to connect your android body to your CNS. Again no idea how you would do that, but my thought is that it would involve far less surgery. I'm thinking some sort of artificial neural sheath to cover the spinal column with millions of spots on it where nerves could connect themselves to it, then a bunch of neurotransmitters and hormones to encourage the nerves to reattach, and of course a lot of stem cells to fix any damage as it occurs. After that it becomes a matter of working out which nerve fibre connected to which part of which organ system, which is largely a learning process. It'd be like learning to walk and breathe again.

And on the other topic, the duplicates paradox is actually centuries old. There long before Gene invented his transporter. To quote:

"I would be glad to know your Lordship's opinion whether when my brain has lost its original structure, and when some hundred years after the same materials are fabricated so curiously as to become an intelligent being, whether, I say that being will be me; or, if, two or three such beings should be formed out of my brain; whether they will all be me, and consequently one and the same intelligent being."
— Thomas Reid letter to Lord Kames, 1775

But to put it simply I would not step into a transporter - even if they cure the obvious problem with flies in the system! As far as I can see it isn't a transporter at all. It's a suicide booth at one end and a people builder at the other. I'd rather walk!

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Nick B]

For downloading/uploading the mind have a read of Richard Morgans Takeshi Kovacs books, begining with Altered Carbon. In these books everyone is fitted with a cortical stack that your memories are updated with. Good books.

For brain removal, well - certain companies already offer cryogenic storage of just your head upon death, in the assumption that sometime in the future you may be revived.

See also the scientific paper - shufflebrain, a contraversial study on salamanders years ago ( i dont remember the guys name sorry) apparently he did a lot of experiments with removing, swapping and even disecting then replacing salamander ( and some frog) brains with pretty interesting results. I do not endorse animal testing by the way, it was something i read years ago after reading a different alternative science work.

 

[alchemist]

Everyone else has covered the biology, so just one thing that occurred to me. Not everybody will want to live forever, so people will either have to opt in or out of the system, and the trained passers-by will need to know if the person who dropped dead in front of them wants their head cut off. They'll need some sort of chip that can be read, or dog-tags, or even a tattoo expressing their preference.

So given that some people know their head may be chopped off, the simplest procedure would be for them to have some implanted device that freezes/preserves the brain, a sort of cranial airbag that goes off as soon as e.g. blood pressure drops to zero. I'd suggest having nanobots lining the cerebral arteries, ready to do whatever it is you want them to do, at a moment's notice.

 

[ralphkern]

As I'm no theologian, I merely provided a nod to the debate in my book. (I also stated that the travellers had been subtly conditioned to be ok with the idea over the course of their training). It's something I would only go through in the most dire of circumstances personally!

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Check out Lois McMaster Bujold's Cryoburn where she deals with the idea of extended life, maybe? Her exploration of the moral issues is, as ever, very insightful